Forming a Stable Time Loop

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

There's this scientist called Bob. Bob turns 25 in 1957. On his birthday he has a few too many and has an nightmare about a vortex. When he wakes up, Bob is inspired. He spends weeks making notes about his idea... Time Travel!

Bob takes his ideas to the scientific community, but is laughed at and ridiculed as a charlatan and poor scientist. Upset, but determined, Bob decides to go it alone.

The years pass by and Bob works furiously but always alone and slow. With no funding or help, Bob can only work in the evenings and weekends. His social life disappears, his friends and family forgotten in the obsession. 50 years have passed. Bob, now retired and living the life of a hermit draws close to completion. He stands before his time door, all his notes and breakthroughs clutched to his chest and tears streaming down his cracked and broken face. He knows that his life was consumed by the machine, but he is determined to make it right. Bob steps through the door...

He appears 50 years in the past. BobOne (the original) stands over the sleeping form of BobTwo (the 25 year old) as he stuggles against a nightmare. Suddenly BobTwo awakes.

"The Vortex" says BobOne. Pain streaks across his old face as the stress of the journey takes it's toll. He falls to the floor, his notes falling loose at his feet. BobTwo runs to his aid, but it's too late. The mysterious old man is dead. Still shaken from the dream, BobTwo looks at the notes spread across his floor. Strange formulae and diagrams evoke memories of the vortex and terrifying truth dawns. Gathering up the fallen papers, BobTwo finds an enveloped addressed to him. Inside the envelope is an unfamiliar Video Tape with the label "watch me as soon as you can".

How long before this loop becomes stable?

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:00

Until the lightening hits the town hall clock.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:06

What the fuck is he going to play the tape on?

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:06

Nicely written btw.

MaliA · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:06

Zardoz wrote:

Nicely written btw.

Seconding that.

MrD · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2139

Bob is a Research and Development scientist at Ampex working on the development of Quadruplex video technology. His older self sends himself a quadtape.

The loop becomes stable when PastBob encounters a FutureBob that's healthy enough for them to collaborate and figure out a rule for what happens when an older PastBob is sent back to do the role of FutureBob. This is assuming that every loop expedites the development of the machine due to the increased availability of the information.

Until then there are variations. After then, old PastBob will follow the rules agreed by himself and his own FutureBob and ensure that the same rules are put in place on that next loop.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

MrD wrote:

Bob is a Research and Development scientist at Ampex working on the development of Quadruplex video technology. His older self sends himself a quadtape.

The loop becomes stable when PastBob encounters a FutureBob that's healthy enough for them to collaborate and figure out a rule for what happens when an older PastBob is sent back to do the role of FutureBob. This is assuming that every loop expedites the development of the machine due to the increased availability of the information.

Until then there are variations. After then, old PastBob will follow the rules agreed by himself and his own FutureBob and ensure that the same rules are put in place on that next loop.

Nice... not exactly what I was going for (it was a VHS that BobOne left), but that could work. Stay tuned...

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:15

MrD wrote:

Bob is a Research and Development scientist at Ampex working on the development of Quadruplex video technology. His older self sends himself a quadtape.

Oh well played!

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:18

DavPaz wrote:

How long before this loop becomes stable?

As long as BobTwo decides to build the time machine and ignore all the notes, it's already stable.

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:21

I think if it was a VHS tape, it would spur Bob to develop a way to read it, which have a side-effect of hastening the development of compact video recorders, which would have all sorts of implications for media, business and news (i.e. war reporting etc) and totally change history. Old-timey bob might never finish his machine. Great Scott!

MrD · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2139

That depends on how you define stable, Grim...

If stable means 'will BobTwo make a time door', then yes, that's probably the case.
If stable means 'will BobTwo make a time door in 2007, gather some notes, use it and die', that's probably not going to happen. Even if he ignores the notes, he will probably recall the time when a guy who looks exactly like his present self suddenly appeared in his room in the middle of the night and died. He'll almost certainly think twice about going through the door when he remembers the unpleasant act of somehow disposing of his own body.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

You see the VHS was the sticking point. If BobOne had survived the trip he could have explained in person. As it is, BobTwo can't watch the tape and has only the fevered notes of BobOne to go on.

Using the notes, BobTwo is able to speed up his development, but the scientific community still reject him. Come the mid 70s, BobTwo can watch the badly degraded tape and gain a few more clues. The strange obsession still rules BobTwo's life and ruins his family and he is still in old age by the time he returns to 1957. This time however, he takes a letter with him. BobTwo still dies at the feet of his 25 year old self but this time development is much quicker. BobThree finishes the time door aged 56 and intends to return after helping BobFour (you see the problem already).

Unfortunately, the time door is always fatal. A 56 year old BobThree dies as did his predecessors. BobFour works at the same speed as BobThree but somehow knows that the trip will kill him. He finishes the door in his fifties and prepares for his trip, but this time the letter contains a PS: The trip may kill you!

BobFive now knows for certain that the trip is deadly. With the combined help of his 4 predecessors the speed of development is much smoother. He is able to complete the machine without ruining his life and lives to be a happy old man. Taking his letter and the necessary notes, a dying old BobFive fires up his legacy and returns to the past.

The time loop is now stable.

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:31

DavPaz wrote:

You see the VHS was the sticking point. If BobOne had survived the trip he could have explained in person. As it is, BobTwo can't watch the tape and has only the fevered notes of BobOne to go on.

Using the notes, BobTwo is able to speed up his development, but the scientific community still reject him. Come the mid 70s, BobTwo can watch the badly degraded tape

Nah, Bob is a scientist. He's got an artifact from the future! The tape would surely contain proof, so he'd work on that first, which would at least convince a few of his colleagues. The cat is out of the bag then, and it's time-line disrupting stuff.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:31

Kalmar wrote:

Nah, Bob is a scientist. He's got an artifact from the future!

And, of course, his own, aged, dead body.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:33

Nicely done.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

kalmar wrote:

Nah, Bob is a scientist. He's got an artifact from the future! The tape would surely contain proof, so he'd work on that first, which would at least convince a few of his colleagues. The cat is out of the bag then, and it's time-line disrupting stuff.

Granted, Bob would work on the tape. But the reams of notes related to his nightmare may attract his attention. Perhaps BobTwo invents the VHS earlier than in BobOne's world. Would that make his Time Door more palatable to the world?

MrD · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2139

If I were BobFive, I'd be wondering whether it's necessary for me to return to the past personally. I could just tie the notes to a brick and chuck it through. At the very least, I'd chuck through something unimportant to see if it made it, and then personally deliver the notes and the letter, which would include my hypothesis and expected results regarding the chucking.

"If you can see 80's TV guide I chucked through, then it won't be necessary for you to return personally. Just chuck the notes. Our invention kills you when you use it, and it really didn't look pleasant. I mean, when it happened to me I'd been woken up from a nightmare about a vortex, when I suddenly appear through a vortex gasping for breath and shouting about a vortex. Leave the vortex alone."

My objective would then be to use the notes I personally delivered to make the time door, put together a nice package full of future cake, time door notes and instructions, and then chuck that through the door. My past self receives time door instructions, future guidance and cake.

Dr Lave · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5979

I wrote a crappy short story ages ago that was like this idea....

Why the hell not, here it is....

EDIT: Just had a quick glance at this again, I didn't even spell check it. It's very rough... I just wrote it when I couldn't sleep.

Quote:

Turn it off and on again

Ian Smith was 22 years, 6 months and 1 second old. And he was pretty
dull. But he had decided to change that by inventing a time
machine (admittedly though it was one that could only head backwards through time,
but it's still better than anything you've managed). He realised he
had achieved this aim when he was sitting at his call centre desk
advising idiots to 'turn it off and on again' when the next
caller turned out to be himself. 'Hello Ian' Ian Smith, 23,
said. 'Er, Hi' Ian 22 1/2 replied, he was confused. The voice sounded
similar - but wrong - and out of breath. The other Ian was
also thinking this as well. For the second time today. He decided that the familiar
vibrations of his skull really added a husky deep quality to
his voice, and it upset him that the rest of the world didn't
get to hear it. He tried to explain this to the younger Ian
who response was to remain silent for so long that it caused
the line to switch off sending the hiss of white noise in
order to direct the bandwith towards the other billions
chattering on the network. This caused the older Ian to ask the
younger Ian if he was still there. To which he replied he
was.

It was a bad start, but at least broke the ice. Ian 23 went over the chinese whispers that explained what had happened. He had
got the 'explanation' off the Ian that told him about the
situation they had found themselves in. He himself had got it
off an older Ian and so on. This went back to the oldest Ian,
53, who discovered the time travel method after thirty years
hard work on his death bed. By which I mean he was in perfect
health until he jumped backed 10 years and embedded himself in
a swimming pool. Not the walls of the swimming pool, you
understand, the water. The molecules of water and his body
were intermixed quite thoroughly, and within minutes the water
had burst his cells, and thinned his blood. Ian, 43, who was
watching this was terrified. But watching the event, and
listening to the desperate hurried conversation of the dying
future him gave Ian the final break through on his time
machine he himself was currently working on. Ian, 43, after
wasting a week working out how to get rid of a future carcass
of himself (Solution: forget about it for now and send it back
a hundred thousand years with the time machine), finished
*his* time machine within the month and a decade ahead of the
last Ian. He went on to perfect the density detection circuits
to make sure he wouldn't end up in the middle of something and
jumped backed another ten years. Ian 33 watched Ian 43 spasm
and die on the floor as the air that was in the volume of
space his head now occupied fought to escape the nerve cells
and sinue that appeared there in a delicate poof. Ian 43
cursed himself for not realising this would happen but managed
to impart the lessons he had learned to the younger Ian before
he passed on. Ian 33's work on the time machine leaped ahead
with this knowledge and within the year he finished the
machine. Faced with the issue of time travel bends he was
afraid to use the machine - until he realised that
tele-porting a human sized vacuum the split second before he
transported himself would solve this problem by causing an
implosion/explosion that for a window of time a fraction of a
second wide should allow his safe passage. And so he went to
see Ian 23. (THIS DOESN'T WORK - they shouldn't have position
control - think of a different reason) Ian 23 however still
lived in London, where Ian 33 lived 5,000 ft higher up a
mountain in The USA. Of course the pressure difference had the
same bends effect and Ian 33 joined his dead future selves
within a few days. However he had long enough to tell Ian 23
exactly how to build the machine and what lottery numbers
would finance it's construction. Ian 23 , despite being
young, was still smart, and realised that he would need to
develop a suit to protect him from any pressure changes that
happened during a jump. This was a major breakthrough - as all
the later versions of the time machine couldn't transport
anything other than organic matter (or nothing itself of
course). Ian 23 had spent all his winnings in the production
of his machine and desiring more money filled his Personal A.I.
with lottery numbers, and stock details and decided to go back
and make some more money to finally have some fun with. Ian
realised, that maybe he had overlooked something, and had to
accept he might make a mistake. To avoid this he put a
detailed guide on the construction of the time machine on his
P.A.I. - but even this wasn't enough. He was quickly running out
of life to play with. His stupid future selves had wasted a
decade with each jump. Why?! Just to be consistent? Out of a
love of intergers?! The fools! Ian, 23, in a spiteful mood
towards his own idiocy set the machine to push him back 5
months 29 days, 23 hours and 59 seconds. As Ian, 23, slipped
into existence he realised his mistake in an instance. Of
course 5 months, 29 days, 23 hours and 59 seconds earlier the
Earth was 180 degrees behind in it's endless circling of the
Sun. He was 2 A.U. away from Ian 22 1/2. As his suit slowly
ran out out of it's supply of future air, Ian's PAI managed to
patch a call through to the electronics call centre he knew he
should be working in. (Hmmm how to end it? Turns him off the
idea, or he hangs up beliving it to be a crank call, but
inspires him to build a machine) Ian 23 had a few seconds left
till his air ran out. Finishing his story he prepared to
download the construction details (and lottery numbers) to his
younger self, but the download widget had crashed. 'Have you
tried turning it off and on again' Ian 22 1/2 helpfully
suggested.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

MrD wrote:

If I were BobFive, I'd be wondering whether it's necessary for me to return to the past personally. I could just tie the notes to a brick and chuck it through. At the very least, I'd chuck through something unimportant to see if it made it, and then personally deliver the notes and the letter, which would include my hypothesis and expected results regarding the chucking.

"If you can see 80's TV guide I chucked through, then it won't be necessary for you to return personally. Just chuck the notes. Our invention kills you when you use it, and it really didn't look pleasant. I mean, when it happened to me I'd been woken up from a nightmare about a vortex, when I suddenly appear through a vortex gasping for breath and shouting about a vortex. Leave the vortex alone."

Ah ha! A winner. That's a scientist talking

MrD · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2139

You'd have to be careful not to include anything from the package you received in the package you send. For example, Bob Senior's engraved pocketwatch to prove that it's really him.

Anything you both receive and send will age the intervening time with each loop.

You can get away with it if it's something that's available to you between the receiving and the sending. Eventually, it'll get to the point where the thing is unsendable, and you'll reason that the point of being sent a knackered gizmo is that you wanted to send yourself a new one. A stable helix of time (from the point of view from the object) is formed where the object degrades and is replaced.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

MrD wrote:

You'd have to be careful not to include anything from the package you received in the package you send. For example, Bob Senior's engraved pocketwatch to prove that it's really him.

Anything you both send and receive will age the intervening time with each loop.

Ah, entropy. Also it could cause a causality loop. That's why I took care to invent BobOne who had no help from the future and gave little help other than inspiration.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:51

Bob 1 should have taken back a sporting Almanac so Bob 2 can place ZOMG Bets to fund the time machine project. Because he didn't, he deserves to die miserable and alone in an IT store cupboard, like DavPaz.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:53

Lave's is good, also. I love a good time travel story.

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:56

myp wrote:

Lave's is good, also. I love a good time travel story.

Here's one for you.

Get to fucking fuck, now.

MrD · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 2139

Whoa, whoa, this is a time door, not a time and space door. We can travel to 'now', but you're going to have to get the bus to fucking fuck.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

Dr Lave wrote:

I wrote a crappy short story ages ago that was like this idea....

Why the hell not, here it is....

EDIT: Just had a quick glance at this again, I didn't even spell check it. It's very rough... I just wrote it when I couldn't sleep.

POTW

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:02

Very good Lave!

Kern · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:03

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

(damn Lave, stealing my damn thread)

kalmar · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:09

That is really good Lave, made me smile. I don't think you need to finish it either, it's sort of better like that

Zardoz · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:10

I don't know why I did the things I did I don't know why I said the things I said. Pride is like a knife it can cut deep inside. Words are like weapons, they wound sometimes.

I didn't really mean to hurt you. I didn't wanna see you go. I know I made you cry, but baby, If I could turn back time
If I could find a way, I'd take back those words that hurt you and you would stay. If I could reach the stars, I'd give them all to you. Then you would love me, love me like you used to do. If I could turn back time...

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:16

Is this thread an advert for this?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

Only if someone wants to pay me...

Dr Lave · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5979

Thanks guys. Having a quick read over it again I'm suprised you can even follow it. I wrote it at about 4am years ago.

DavPaz wrote:

(damn Lave, stealing my damn thread)

Sorry. Your ideas more entertaining though.

Mine annoys me because the earth doesn't just rotate round the sun, it rotates round the galaxy at 28,000 mph so he would still wind up there after the very first jump.

Grim... · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 14:18

And the galaxy moves as well, of course.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

Well, yeah. Assuming that the time travel widget locks you to one point in space, the only 'safe' place to make a trip would be in interstellar (or even intergalactic) space.

myp · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 14:23

DavPaz wrote:

Well, yeah. Assuming that the time travel widget locks you to one point in space, the only 'safe' place to make a trip would be in interstellar (or even intergalactic) space.

Yeah, that's a bit crap really. You'd have to build something into it to take into account the relative distance moved by the planets an' t'ing.

You can tell I'm one of those sciencers.

Dr Lave · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 5979

Aye, and the galaxy and Local Group and so on...

It is an interesting way to look at it actually, the universe as we understand it has no preferred reference frame so when you travel in time how to do you relate your start and end positions?

Yeah, we'll need to know our time and relative dimension In space if we are gona get this working.

*gets coat*

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

That's why mine was a time 'door'.

The 5th dimension is folded back through the first 4 to form a gateway.

It's all here. I'd recommend a watch if you have ooh, 20 minutes.

Malc · **Posted:** Fri Apr 24, 2009 14:30

What about momentum? Just because you are moving through time, does it mean you lose your momentum?

Malc

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38606

I depends on your method. I cribbed mine from the link above (and Dune in a way) and it doesn't involve moving much at all

Be Excellent To Each Other

Forming a Stable Time Loop
(warming up my typing fingers)

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Be Excellent To Each Other

Forming a Stable Time Loop (warming up my typing fingers)

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Forming a Stable Time Loop
(warming up my typing fingers)