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 Post subject: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 18:28 
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I forgot about this - how vain

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First there was fingerprinting Romani people as they are the troublemakers. Then as that was criticised there response was - 'well we'll do everyone then'.

Now Novaria is banning public gatherings of 3+ people. Sorry no protests for you! Not because of crime though - this massive, massive corruption of freedom is happening because (and I quote) "several elderly residents complained of noise."

At the same time thousands of soldiers start walking the streets of all the main cities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2494053/Italian-mayor-bans-gatherings-of-three-or-more-people-as-soldiers-hit-streets.html

This isn't really all over the news like I would have thought it would have been. Banning people meeting in the streets? In europe? More than 3? Even Mussolini only banned 5 or more.

Fucking Hell

What the hell has happened? I've not been paying attention to italy's politics so I've no idea of the build up to this.

Reproduced below for those with firewalls I guess.
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Quote:
Italian mayor bans gatherings of three or more people as soldiers hit streets
As soldiers prepare to be deployed on Italian streets, a city mayor has been accused of Fascism after he passed an edict banning groups of more than three people congregating in parks and public gardens.

By Nick Pisa in Rome
Last Updated: 6:25AM BST 04 Aug 2008

Critics have complained that the sight of gun-toting soldiers on Italian streets will have a negative effect Photo: AFP/GETTY
The anti-gathering laws were enacted as thousands of soldiers were due to take to the streets of Italian cities for the first time on Monday under a controversial move by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to fight crime.
Massimo Giordano, a member of Italy's anti immigration Northern League party, defended the anti-gathering motion and claimed it would cut down on unruly behaviour.
However opposition councillors said it was "reminiscent of Benito Mussolini's edict of the 1920's which banned groups of five or more people".
The ban will not affect courting couples who flock to parks and gardens in the northern Italian city of Novara, where Mr Giordano holds power, but if anyone is caught in a group of three or more they face a fine of 500 euro (£350).
Mr Giordano said that the edict would ban "gatherings in a bid to protect public decorum and prevent damage to public parks and gardens" from people who gathered in them at night.
Novara, which has a population of 100,000, is not seen as a particularly crime-ridden or violent city but the mayor passed the law after several elderly residents complained of noise.
He has also banned the consumption of alcohol at the city's station after 6pm and closed a immigrant cultural centre.
Opposition councillor Sara Paladini said: "There is no emergency situation in Novara - there is no need for such a Fascist edict. There are other better ways to tackle the city's problems."
But Mauro Franzinelli, the councillor in charge of security, said: "This is needed to limit public disturbance. The citizens of Novara asked for it. I understand opposition left councillors plan to gather and protest in groups of more than three - we will not fine them this time.
"One thing I will say though is that to compare the ordinance with Fascism is absurd. We are trying to solve issues but are being accused of Fascism."
Around 3,000 troops are expected to begin patrolling streets of major cities - including Rome, Milan, Naples, Bari, Palermo and Venice - on Monday as part of a government clampdown on crime.
The capital has been earmarked for the highest number of troops - 1,000 will patrol high-profile locations such as stations, embassies and diplomatic residences.
Critics have complained that the sight of gun-toting soldiers on Italian streets will have a negative effect, especially on tourism and there have been contradictory messages from city and military leaders on the troops' role.
Gianni Alemanno, Rome's mayor, has said that they will not be deployed around the city's tourist sites. But Ignazio La Russo, the country's defence minister, has said they will.
Giorgio Sansa, a tour guide who runs a travel firm in Rome, said: "I really don't see the need for troops on streets, it will have a completely negative effect.
"I have already had people calling me after reading reports of troops on streets in Italy and asking me is there some sort of civil war going on."
Soldiers will also patrol alongside regular police officers, but they will have no powers of arrest and can merely stop, search and identify anyone who arouses suspicion. They will carry small arms, but not machine guns.
Centre-Left opposition MP's have criticised the plan because they fear it will scare off tourists and actually do little to deter crime.
Marco Minniti, the shadow interior minister of the Democratic Party, said: "It's an image-boosting operation that risks turning into a boomerang.
"It will make Italy look like a country in the grip of an uncontrolled security emergency.
"Paratroopers guarding the centres of the major tourist cities aren't exactly a great calling card for a country at the height of the tourist season."
Antonio Di Pietro, of the Italy of Values party, said: "We will have one soldier for every 10 municipalities, doing nothing except going to the bar with a policeman. It's a joke. And to cap it all it's only a provisional measure."
The soldiers will initially be deployed for just six months with a provision to extend for a further six months.
The last time Italy put soldiers on the streets was to fight a crime wave in Naples in 1997, while they were also deployed in Sicily after a Mafia bomb campaign in 1993-4.
Troops have not been seen in Rome since the "years of lead" in the mid 1970s when the Red Brigades carried out a series of spectacular kidnappings, including the murder of Christian Democrat leader Aldo Moro

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 18:37 

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Ever tried to protest near Westminster?


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 18:37 
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I'll echo your WTF, there.

Mentalists.

So, holiday makers in a group of 4 or more? no go?

wierdness.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 18:40 
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I forgot about this - how vain

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Oh Duds - we are completely fucked up - but at least I can walk down the street with more than 2 other people by my side.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 18:44 

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Or you could if you had friends ;)

But yeah, WTF.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 20:05 
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I like "gun-toting soldiers". Soldiers I could accept, but gun-toting soldiers?

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 20:14 
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Lave wrote:
What the hell has happened? I've not been paying attention to italy's politics so I've no idea of the build up to this.

Kind of started when Berlusconi got re-elected this year. Just before then he merged his own party with some smaller groups, the biggest of which being National Alliance, who are basically fascists, sorry, "post-fascist". Berlusconi also allies himself with the Northern League, a really nasty bunch of racist who want independence for the north of Italy, amongst some other crazy ideas.

Ironically, the name of Berlusconi's new political party translates as 'People of Freedom'.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 21:05 
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I recall after that re-election there was many groups in the streets of Italy performing fascist salutes and talking of retribution against "them". "Them", of course, being "anyone else", more or less.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 22:23 
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Because facism worked out so well for Italy last time.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 23:12 

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Can you imagine if they tried to push northwards for Lebensraum?

Fucking hilarious, that'd be :D

Bless Italy, it is and always has been a VERY SILLY PLACE.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 0:15 
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Anonymous X wrote:
Ironically, the name of Berlusconi's new political party translates as 'People of Freedom'.


Is there any record of a successful political party calling themselves 'The Jackbooted Oppression Party'?


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:44 
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INFINITE POWAH

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nervouspete wrote:
Because facism worked out so well for Italy last time.

Indeed. And last time they had a big ally with lots of guns. This time they've got... well. Kids on Vespas.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:45 
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Eees craizey.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:48 
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INFINITE POWAH

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No helmets. Craizey.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:57 
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I'm still amazed that Berlusconi got voted back in. And (perhaps more so) that pretty much every party he's been attached to or asociated with has been happy to help him change the law so he can't be prosecuted. Did none of them wonder that perhaps the reason he's so desperate not to end up in court is because he's guilty? Or do they not care?

I agree - what the fuck is going on in that country? Still, it's been a bit mental politics-wise for some time, what with the musical chairs approach to governing they've had.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:02 
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The problem is such policies would probably appeal to a vocal section of population in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:03 
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I do wonder what would happen if a political party campaigned on an out and out "kill the forrins and pikeys and wogs waaaaagh!" platform. They would probably win a small but still worrying percentage of votes.

Oh... wait.. the BNP have done that already.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:06 
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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:10 
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I lost track of how many immigration acts have been passed over the last decade.

Of course, three or more is a defintion of a riot (if I remember correctly). Then we have child curfews, arbitary on-the-spot fines, arming of police, and ... must stop before I feel sick again. What a great country. :'(


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:13 
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I'm struggling to see how the child curfew thing can possibly be legal.

Unless the police are just Section 5ing them.

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:16 
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It's 'voluntary' apparently.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:21 
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markg wrote:
It's 'voluntary' apparently.


As in:

"Would you like to accompany me to the station, sir?"

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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:27 
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Also:

Part 4, Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003.
< http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/uk ... 8_en_5#pt4 >

Whether it has been superceded by another badly-worded, ill-thought-out, unnecessary piece of 'tough' legislation is another matter altogether.

I fear we are moving away from policing by consent in this country, and the fact that people seem to welcome such ideas suggests an authoritarian undercurrent which is frankly scary. But then I like my ivory tower.


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 Post subject: Re: What the hell is happening to italy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:27 
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Well, it has been coming slowly, (warning, this might be rather tiring few paragraphs for those not interested in Italy, or it politics)....

As many of you know, and my forum name suggests, I lived in Italy for some time in the late 90s/early 00s. One of the most memorable nights was november 9, 1999, 10 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I went to a meeting in the Palazzo del Lavoro, in EUR, a Merlusconi built quarter, fascist in style for the cancelled Rome World Expo of 1940. Berlusconi almost took credit for the fall of the Mauer, equalising the left with the communist parties. And there I stood amidst people singing the forza Italia hymny "Rinasce con noi" (Get reborn with us) peformed for television stars, and wavbing flags. The people fell hard for it. I stood amids 100s of women from naples, in hteir 40s and 50s, and he, the men who brough them their daily Telenovela, was their hero.

In the 80s, the balance of power was corrupt, but stable. The DC (Christian Democrats) were in power, and formed a government with the Craxi Socialdemocrats. The communists (PCI) were kept happy with some jobs at the time and their powerbases around Tuscany. Governments changed every year, but the same powerpeople kept being in charge (Fanfani, Andreotti, Moro) But it couldn't last, corruption thrived and thrived and Italy was left behind.

Operation Mani Puliti started, with some very brave Milan Magistrates. The system, which had been so stable, collapsed over night. To fill the vaccuum of center-left, and center right. Two things happened. The PCI tried to show themselves social democrats (DS) and on the right Berlusconi saw a chance to remain far from corruption investigations and gian more power, partly by use of his television force. Furthermore there were lots of small parties, and many factions.

He won the election, but his first government wasn't stable, mainly due to the Lega Nord, the northern sparatists and the post-fascists (NA), who weren't that united at the time. The next govenrment was a left one, and actually quite good with Prodi and D'Alema leading fragile coalitions and leading Italy towards the Euro (which you might not like as a goal, but the discipline was important.


In 2001 Berlusconi regained power (on my birthday ffs) and he led a very stable government to his credit. Sadly, the things they did do weren't that much. He had sign a Newt Gingrich-style Contract with the Italians, which yhad worked very well in the election campaign, but he couldn't keep his promises, partly due to the econmoic bad weather. He failed to make any painfull reformations necessary. Italy is filled with little entrepreneurs about to be wiped away and a pension system that's unsustainable.

So he he lost the elections of '06 but only narrowly, which led to perhaps the most not-being able to do anything-govenment of all time. An easy prey for the opposition, the Prodi-II government was only busy keeping afloat. Italy was at the same time overflowed by immigrants, economic problems and a crime wave.

And now Berlusconi saw his chance, for the '08 elections, he won a big victory, and incorperated the former fascists into the 'House of Freedom', his new party. He convinced Italians he would combat these problems by doing three things, although frased rather differently
- Give companies, especially his, more freedm
om
- Reduce the power of the magistrates to go for old crimes (including his alleged crimes)
- And to cover it up, do harsh things against immigrants and Roma, while doing nothing to actually help their situation to prevent them from coming into a criminal environments, and now this...

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