Be Excellent To Each Other

Ali was a bit of a nasty racist in his time, particularly disparaging of other black fighters, referring to them as 'the wrong kind of negro', 'gorillas', and not like him, turning both whites and blacks against his opponents with hate language to suit the prejudices of his audience. (He would, for example, accuse other black fighters of being 'Uncle Toms' (i.e. working for the enemy) when they were doing no such thing.)

Jeez man, he's only just died!

In fairness, there's no way I'd call a boxer a knob to his face...

Pretty sure some people here were quite disparaging of Thatcher after she died. I don't think you can gloss over people's failings just because theyve joined the choir invisible.

Although I am making no comment on this particular case as I don't know it overly well, so don't take that as an endorsement of Hearthly's views.

My understanding is that he did whatever he could to win, including disparaging remarks about his opponents. Anything was fair game in his persuit to be the greatest.

Isn't there a part of that Michael Parkinson interview he did where he states that he is totally opposed to interracial relationships, and that people should only marry and have children with their 'like' to preserve purity (I may be off with the details... I completely forgot about this until Hearthly's post, and saw it so many years ago that it's only a vague memory). It's not part of the interview they show very often, understandably.

Anyway, point being that I'm not sure it makes much of a difference that someone uses the excuse of intimidating/upsetting/psychologically affecting their opponents to already racist hatred. I don't think that is a valid excuse or reason, but even if you were to accept that as being the case I don't think Ali's beliefs on race were very nice and I don't think it factors when speaking to non-opponents (such as Parkinson).

If Google for a YouTube clip to check my memory of it but Darwin is asleep on my lap so I am being very quiet. I may be completely wrong in my memory, in which case do ignore me

I think he just hates white people which is totally fine.

And you can't really blame him.

Hating people because of their colour is wrong. And it doesn't matter which colour does the hating. It's just plain wrong.

Look at what you're saying, man.

That's actually a complete fiction on his part, though. Apparently he had lots of different stories about it.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... st-moments

God you guys are so easy to troll these days. It's fun playing the straw man that you build for me.

Agreed. But if you hate those people because of the suffering and subjugation they have put you and your people under for hundreds of years, you can sort of understand why they would have those kinds of prejudices.

You perhaps want to think about why that is.

Because no matter how plainly I state things, people start handwringing and throwing their hands up in the air, rather than actually reading the words I say?

Honkies need to learn to read.

Obviously you have bettered everyone again.

I feel I've learned a very valuable lesson, even though I've no idea what it's supposed to be.

*punches Joans*

I wasnt saying that made it okay, I was saying that he thought it was okay to use any tactic to win.

Whether you think that those actions belittle his achievements is up to you I guess.

That's not really the point I was making. I was just saying that perhaps his beliefs were more deep seated than just something he'd say to wind up opponents. But really his views and statements seemed often very contradictory, so what he really believed will probably never be known.

He was certainly a sportsman without match, in persona and sheer starry skill. It was sad to see his declined condition, a lion that I e only really known as a kitten.

I wonder if he'd have still Perseus the glory and fame of his skill if he'd known that it was (probably) the cause of his health problems in the second part of his adult life? Do you live half your life at a thousand miles an hour and accept those consequences or go slower but never know the view from stardom and absolute adoration? Hard to know.

He'll always be one of sport's great heroes, though.

Muhammad Ali: boxing legend, humanitarian, proponent of white genocide.

"So now I’m going to forget the 400 years of lynching and killing and raping and depriving my people of freedom and justice and equality… and I’m gonna look at two or three white people who are trying to do right and ignore the million trying to kill me? I’m not that big of a fool."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 67656.html

We watched the David Frost interview with Muhammed Ali last night on iPlayer.

My favourite part was how (when asked how blacks and whites should live together) he said he wanted complete separation of the races. He didn't want to go to a white's restaurant, he wanted to go to a black restaurant; and Chinese restaurants are full of that ting tang tong music.

It was more of that in the same vein for most of the interview when he wasn't talking about boxing.

Oh, I forgot to say, it wasn't the Parkinson interview I was referring to earlier, it was the David Frost one. It's on iPlayer. He completely railroads Frost, who comes across like an embarrassing dad meeting your boyfriend for the first time.

Ali does talk about how his beliefs dictate that the races shouldn't integrate, that like the animals and birds we shouldn't mix and should keep pure and separated, and that he doesn't think black people should mix with white, or Mexican, or Chinese, because he doesn't want to date anyone from a different culture, eat their food, go to Chinese restaurants with Chinese people and have to listen to their 'Ching chong ting tong' music.

Your clip shows that Ali was correct: hundreds of years of oppression doesn't mean that forgiveness should be automatic and the past forgotten. He also was looking back rather than forwards, which was his right.

But was he a racist? Even if we assume that a black person can't be racist to a white person (not because I agree but because we don't even need to explore that at this point) was he a racist? He doesn't give he reasons for not wanting to mix with Chinese or Mexican people as the oppression of black people, just that he didn't think the races, and their cultures, should mix. So maybe he was just racist... More people were back then, maybe he was just one of them?

Shut up, Russell.

How exactly can a black person not be racist to a white person? The reasons may be different, but hate is hate. Hating a whole race of people for the actions of a few is racist, no matter what colour your skin is.

Except Leeds fans. They're all animals.

Out of curiosity, when was that Frost Interview with him? The little research I have done recently leads me to think he may well have been about segregation when he was younger, but as he got older (maybe after he converted to Islam?) he realised he was misguided.

I could be wrong with that, and even if I am, you can't really blame him. I think it's practically impossible, for anyone who hasn't experienced it, to understand what it was like to be black in America in the 40s, 50s and 60s. How you might think that there is no way that whites can be trusted to be fair to non-whites. I think you can see that one response to that might be a Black Panther type movement, and another way may be more Martin Luther King Jnr, however, I can see some people thinking that the easiest approach is to just go for segregation.

Now I could be way off the mark (I've watched a film and a couple of documentaries about a decade ago) and a little bit of picking up stuff in the last few days.

1974.

He was very much converted to Islsm at this point and I think was suggesting that his conversion had either strengthened or instigated his belief in the segregation of races, but I was doing something else whilst watching, so would have to listen better to that part to really say.

It's only 30 mins long, and is actually a good interview to watch if just to see Ali's patter and recitation. He falters in a few places, but it's quite impressive and reeled off from rote, I'd imagine. He delivers almost like a preacher when he's giving his speeches, it's interesting stuff, and good to see him as a younger man but out of the flush of youth, before he was ill.

Wait, I know this one... It's because dictionaries are written by white people, which was a TIL from a few days ago. Keep up, Paz.

Sorry. Us cis whiteys are a bit dim, y'know.

Poor you. Here's a hanky for your white man-tears.

So much white privilege.

Ftfy

Not that these were actually all that different, but white people have changed the narrative on MLK over the intervening years.

I was more thinking of the "I have a dream..." speech

White men in fact. Hence you also have examples of words like 'feminists' being "she was a rabid feminist".
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... ist-gender

It's weird how you broadly agree with me on women's rights issues, but not with black rights issues, despite the fact a lot of the problems both demographics face intersect.

(PS, not saying you're racist, just saying you're wrong, btw)

Yeah, but even if you whitewash history and say he was a peaceful civil rights protester (like that's ever got anything done), he was still murdered for his beliefs.

Anyway, I can't be drawn into this guff again today, too busy. I just wanted to do a Cavey and drop a truth bomb on you all before running away cackling.

Actually... that's a definition of "rabid"

Oh goodness, no, I actually find some of the things you say about women's rights issues a bit ridiculous, but I'm in a better position to have fun, there.

If you said that it was ok for women to hate men based on their gender and that this is totally ok because of hundreds of years of males oppressing women, I'd think you were just as wrong.

If you told me that a group of women can't be sexist towards men I'd completely disagree.

But I'm sure you'd tell me I was wrong.

Indeed.

Sorry, your truth bomb didn't detonate.

Or Craster jumped on it... Couldn't tell

I don't think it's okay, but I do think it's understandable.

Nice "well actually" there. Keep up the sterling work for all mankind.

It's ok, the truth is still in there, as you admit. I'm just no good at wiring the things.

*tips fedora*

... Oh look, a man telling me that I can't be sexist towards men and that I'm wrong to think that I can.



But yes, to say that I'm with you on sexism issues and against you on racism issues is wrong.

I very much believe that racism can be used against white people.

I very much believe that sexism can be used against men.

That it happens less often in both cases doesn't make it ok.

I don't think hating all people of a detain race is ok.

I don't think hating all people of a certain gender is ok.

The same goes for culture, country of origin, sexual orientation... Many things.

Thinking this does not make me a racist, sexist, or anything else. If a man on this board thinks that it's not ok for a woman to hate men based on the oppression of women, I don't think that makes him a sexist.

But you've already admitted to being a troll. And that's a shame, because if you really believed in doing right by minority and oppressed groups you'd have some more positive action than trolling, but instead you spend your time trying to prove the intellectual superiority of your beliefs to those you call friends.

You may think differently to some folks on this board, but that doesn't mean you think 'better', and frankly I'd rather live in s world where I believe that sexism towards men does exist, and racism towards white people does exist, with the express hope that these become unacceptable along with all other forms of racism and sexism, than say things like 'of course it's fine for him to hate all white people' or 'of course, it's fine for that woman to hate all men'.

Crikey. I made one troll comment because it's easier to play the straw man than actually try to be sincere on here (because the OTT reaction I get is the same whether I am careful about my language on these topics or not).

Just to be clear, I don't think it's ok for anyone to hate anyone else. But I completely understand why and sympathise with women who hate men and people of colour who hate white people because of how they have been oppressed by them throughout history and still today.

White people are not oppressed for being white and men are not oppressed for being men (although they can be oppressed in other ways, go go intersectionality!). By saying you think 'racism' towards white people is "just as bad" as racism towards people of colour (or racism, as I like to call it) leads me to believe that you think we're all currently on a level playing field, that we're all starting from a baseline. This just isn't true, I'm sorry to tell you. 'Racism' towards white people might hurt their feelings, but racism towards PoC costs jobs, freedom, and in extreme cases, lives.