Be Excellent To Each Other

Equally, and getting down to what she's really saying at the heart of that article, if Mark Twain had written Huckleberry Finn now, it would be very unlikely to be published as is. I don't really know whether that's a good thing or not, but I really think it is. As valuable as it is as in insight into the mindset of the time, it's at it's core a pretty damned racist book.

You know in her example you quote Mexicans weren't upset, right? It was the university authority saying they would be. Sort of the entire point of the article is not "ethnic minorities should just lump it". It was "other people are deciding what is now offensive through cultural appropriation and it's gone rather too far - I wouldn't have been offended by X so I don't imagine the university authorities were correct in their assumption of offence on the behalf of Mexicans for something similar".

Yep. And I think the action of the university authority was ridiculous, personally. But her approach to criticising that extreme is to say that the whole idea of cultural appropriation is wrong and she hopes it disappears. And that I disagree with.

Well yes, but that's because it's racist, though, not simply because of any cultural appropriation going on in it.

I suppose that rather depends on the definition of cultural appropriation you're using. The one she quotes from that academic is rather ridiculous - and means that I'm not allowed to have I don't know, corn rows or something unless all the people of African descent in the world say I'm allowed to. But that's the definition a lot of people seem to be working to (on behalf of the ethnic minorities concerned). Myp's definition further upthread is a little more sensible (as it needs to be accompanied by systematic oppression), but even that's going to be a little difficult to apply meaningfully.

I don't think cultural appropriation stands up as a "bad thing white people do" on its own. If it's a bunch of white people in Geisha outfits caricaturing Japanese culture, that's just racism, it doesn't need another concept layered on top. If it's a white person just wearing a Geisha outfit or a kimono or something, I really disagree that that's a "bad thing" per se. Similarly, to Ms Shriver's point, including an element of someone else's culture in your novel is also not a bad thing.

You're not allowed corn rows because, I don't know, cardigan.

So here's the example I always think makes good sense of it. Currently Jerk Chicken is pretty 'on trend', lots of street food popups, and the like. If rich UK-based companies with no links to the Caribbean community start buying up prime spots in up and coming locations like Brixton and opening up Jerk Chicken shops, with authentic-looking recipes and decor, that's cultural appropriation. It's saying "we can do this too", and making a ton of money out of it, pushing out the small businesses with community links in the area, and doing it all while being blind to the role that places like that play in communities and families with Caribbean backgrounds. It's saying "I get that this is your thing, and all - but move over, I can do it better".

Also you should totally get corn rows.

I get what you mean, but why's that "wrong"? That's just capitalism, which you love loads.

Otherwise you're giving ownership of an idea or thing or style or whatever to an amorphous group of people with no way of discerning who's allowed to give permission to other people to use it.

Quite. It's a difficult topic that needs treating with more sensitivity than 'I hope the concept of cultural appreciation is a passing fad'.

BURN

Alternatively, that's a valid viewpoint, as, so her argument goes, the concept of "cultural appropriation" is one that doesn't add anything to the sum total of human happiness or go any way towards solving any problems for anyone.

Personally, I'm inclined towards your view on it as a concept, but am not convinced. I was just a bit iffy about your golliwog comments as it seemed to play into the whole "disagree with this and you're a racist" style of commentary that seems to becoming the norm in certain circles.

Anyway, all good.

:luv;

She's also saying that it's wrong to criticise an author for writing about a person outside of their nebulously defined group because it is outside of tbeir nebulously defined group. She further says that it's wrong to criticise an author for writing about someone outside their nebulous group that is anything other than "admirable and lovely".

And goes on:


I think she is correct on these points. It is a loss

I heard an interview with Lionel Shriver the other day, she's a fascinating woman.

I still haven't read anything she's written, of course, as spaceships and splosions aren't part of her ouevre.

Fuck her, then.

Yeah, and I'll admit to going for the cheap jab on that.

I think she is correct on those points also. I think where the fault lies is that she's decided to go for some level of shock factor and dabble outside her ballpark. If she'd restricted her comments to literary criticism I don't think there would be much of an issue. But she didn't - she decided to have a go at wider societal approaches to cultural sensitivity, and she missed the mark widely in my mind.

I am constantly getting Liev Schreiber and Lionel Shriver mixed up in my head. Sadly, as they both seem quite serious and sensible, this doesn't result in as many hilarious misconceptions as it might.

I think she was using the other points to frame those points:

"you're not supposed to try on other people's hats" is the same lines as "you shouldn't write outside your box"

For example.

Also, I think she perhaps had a wee bit of a point on those hats.

While we're on the subject, this was a good article - https://www.theguardian.com/world/comme ... ropriation

S'easy. One is a serious thespian. The other dances on the ceiling.

No, you're thinking of Leo Sayer.

Wasn't he on Give Us A Clue?

Gah you're right.

I think you mean Lionel Blair.

And as a counterpoint to the pseudo-intellectual musings of white academics, some thoughts on the subject by actual PoC.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7064420
https://mediadiversified.org/2015/07/17 ... gy-azalea/

The second one doesn't really advance a position past Craster's argument about jerk chicken shops, just replaces it with music, with some longer words added in to up the reading age and make it seem more authoratative.

The first is a video by a 16 year old actress which I haven't watched.

Then there is no hope for you sir. Good day.

And it's 'authoritative', if we're being sniffy about the intellectualism of others.

Uh, I think you'll find my chicken shop argument was the peak of intellectual pugilism.

Your face is the peak of intellectual pugilism.

It echoed back through time itself and on hearing it, Socrates himself thought "This hemlock is the better option".

Ah, much better. Thank you Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... P=soc_3156

Now go for the kill -
Twain, Wilde, Twain, Twain, Mencken!

And LS was saying



LS phrased it very strongly.

Way to ignore most of the article and pull out the one thing she agreed with.

I may have missed an answer to something similar in the last two pages as my head was going in circles and i was pushing a pram, but here's something from my local takeaway row of shops.

A Greek chap owned two takeaways, one chip shop called 'the chippy' and the other a pizzeria.

A Dominoes has just moved into the row of shops, so the pizzeria is now a Chinese takeaway, still owned by the same chap. So which venture(s), if any, are examples of cultural appropriation amongst the (British?) chip shop, pizzeria, and Chinrse takeaway, owned by a Greek businessman?

None of them.

The other half where she said LS was over the top in framing her comments on writing people outside of her box and didn't do as well a job as maybe she might have hoped.

Both agree on the ownership of experiences.

Ok, why? (Again, you may have already explained, but I've skimmed at best). I did see your example of a businessman opening a Jamaican food shop, why different if a business man opens a Chinese food shop?

There are tens of thousands of Chinese restaurants in the UK, almost exclusively run by people of a Chinese background. The chances of someone successfully shoving their way into that space and taking over the Chinese food market from people of Chinese descent is astonishingly unlikely. If a rich restaurant mogul looks out onto the streets of London or Birmingham right now and plans to open a restaurant, they could easily do so without having any impact on Chinese restaurants that are in place. Equally if they did put a Chinese restaurant out of business, it would have next to no impact on the Chinese community at large.
The same is not true of Caribbean restaurants. There are far fewer of them, and they have far deeper roots into their original cultures. They're not run as big businesses, there isn't the capacity there for other places to take over the slack if one or more fail.

More, it's not just the difference between the two. It's about intent. Your Greek chap opening a Chinese restaurant is doing it because there's people nearby who he think are an untapped market for Chinese food. Open a Caribbean restaurant in Brixton and the market's already there, the restaurants are already there, and you're very much going to be using the 'we're a Caribbean restaurant' as a cynical way to muscle in. As Chris said, yes it's capitalism - but it's unprincipled naked capitalism.

I rambled a bit there. And bear in mind that I'm no expert, this is just what feels right in my head.

Ok, thank you. I think I can see what you mean at least (so don't worry about 'rambling' as it just kind of fills out your point of view).

I think I'd seen cultural appropriation as something that took away something that was 'special' to a group of people, not necessarily for monetary reasons. So, in that sense maybe I would be nervous of, for example, white Australian children making indigenous Australian style paintings at school as it was culturally insensitive. I think you're coming from the point where people are benefitting from the (sometimes sterotyped) trappings of a culture which is not their own. Would you say that is fair?

If that is the case, if Jamaican restaurant and Mexican restaurants were better established and largely owned by the people whose cultures they were benefitting from, would the examples at the university and of your hypothetical scenario no longer be problematic?

Actually, no, my example (Australian art) is a bad one. I think learning as much about our friends and neighbours in the world is a good thing. I think as long as the history, background and ideas of the original creators of the artwork is explained in an accurate, appropriate and educational way, areas of art are a beautiful thing to share, and the more we learn from these areas of culture, the better life would be. As long as it wasn't 'draw an animal outline in white paint and fill it with dots', and more a history of the techniques, and what tools were used and what the figures represented, and why they were special, and how they were achieved... I would hope (hope) at least that it would be something that helped spread understanding and the magic of history and culture in communities, rather than something negative. But who knows. I know that other people would find it offensive as in sure there was a story on almost exactly this case, which is why it jumped into my head, and the fact it is a bad idea itself makes me sad.

so, yeah, political education establishments to spread the party word in areas of deprivation. Surprised that hasn't been done before.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37359196

Juncker proposes a EU HQ for a European Army

So what's the betting we discover that there is a large clone army in China that was ordered by Margret Thatcher in the 80's that nobody knew anything about

20th Oct for Batley aft Jo Cox death and same date for Witney elections.

Interesting interview with NUS President Malia Bouattia.

That's a funny name.

I am fairly sure we've discussed her before.

It is an interesting interview, and wish the write-up was actually longer. I think Malia (*chortle*) does get misrepresented a lot, but she maybe courts controversy as seeing light shone on a subject as being positive, whether or not she is being personally attacked for that opinion.

I very much get her point on Zionism/Palestine, but it's an extremely odd confluence of opinions and agendas, and a ground where a lot of horrible people with horrible ideas and opinions congregate. As such it is hard (as Corbyn is finding out) to try to support the existence of Palestine, and try to hold the Israeli government to account for bad things they do, without implicitly sharing some of the views of either Hamas terrorists or alt-right and far left antisemites.