Be Excellent To Each Other

That's certainly how I'd like to go.

Halfway there already!

Fuck it, I'm going to break up people shitting on this thread and post some Winehouse on top form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVaqQe3V ... HV5ZdPWopY fuck me pumps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPnQrNF0-zk Valerie like at the bbc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yioQED8D ... re=related Back to black same session.

Watch those and then tell me we haven't lost something special, at what point she was lost is up to debate but I for one am going to mourn her, flaws and all.

Amy Winehouse had easy access to both the best care/support network to help get her off the drugs AND the drugs/suppliers networks to allow her to feed the addiction.

She could have support or drugs in abundance, because wealth will buy both. Her fame, money and connections were her kill or cure.

As ever, Mimi sums it up better than anyone else could. There is nothing else to say.

No Chinny there is something else to say, mostly referring to your post on page 1 of this thread where you say you have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse.

You can retrospectively modify your position as much as you see fit, but there's no getting away from:





Just so we're clear, this is a woman who committed suicide* at the age of 27 through a debilitating combination of mental illness, depression, self harm, and addiction to drink and drugs.

Massively talented, but never happy, obviously tortured and clearly suffering at a very fundamental and base level for most of her adult life - and yet you have no qualms about dancing on her grave with a 'no sympathy' vote.

Seriously man, as a human being, how can you say you have 'no sympathy'?


* Obviously we're still waiting for confirmation of the cause of death, but I'm saying the old favourite of 'cocktail of drink and drugs' is going to be the answer.

Mrs AE mentioned this to me before

We both were (are!) massive Nirvana fans, and whilst I don't 'do' getting upset about famous people dying, the death of Kurt Cobain is the closest I've ever got to my 'Princess Di' moment.

It was only when I read the books about his life, particularly 'Heavier Than Heaven', that I finally understood how deeply and fatally unhappy he was in his own body and mind.

Or as Chinny might say, fuck that junkie bastard I'm glad the sorry little cunt is dead. NO SYMPATHY!

Whenever we have a discussion on this subject, government yard's posts have always been eminently moving and humbling, and have had a lasting and profound effect on my understanding of this subject. Genuinely, thank you man.

Indeed, it's a shame some folks just won't listen and learn.

Just you wait till I become a van driver or something!

That one is mesmerising, especially the introduction she gives.

The lyrics are those of extreme darkness, but it's OK, she had every opportunity to help herself. I have no sympathy.



The lyrics of Amy Winehouse, dead at the age of 27.

Formaldehyde?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/ju ... intcmp=122



Step right up, cast your vote, no sympathy.

I'm with chinnyhill on this. Given the vast volume of people in the world who suffer terrible fates through no fault of their own, I have zero sympathy for someone who has the finanicial resources to have a decent chance of sorting their shit out while not having to worry about, say, the standard 9-5 that most of us deal with.

I never liked her music. To say she was 'talented' is a subjective statement that I disagree with.

I have much, much more sympathy for Norway and those who weren't given a choice or a chance about their deaths. Hers is a minor story of a washed up tragic addict who should have known better, and had every opportunity for an epiphany about the stupidity of her lifestyle. I hope the story gets buried quickly. And better still, I'll refuse to argue with anyone who disagrees with me about it. I tweeted this earlier:

'Not a waste of talent, but certainly a waste of bandwidth'.

Fin.

While I do not entirely agree with everthing Chinny said, I certainly agree that he has the right not to give a shit that she's carked it.

Yeah but you are a renowned troll so I wouldn't expect any better. Your thread title already made your opinions clear and to be frank I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think.

Yeah of course he is and by the same token I am entitled to point out his lack of humanity when he decides to share his opinions with the world.

I don't think it's fair to call it a "lack of humanity" just because he doesn't care that someone he's never met has died. Nobody can possibly care about everyone in every situation. You'd go bloody mental from anguish stress for a start.

I didn't give a fuck about her when she was alive, and I certainly don't give a fuck about her now she's dead. She was a massive waste of space, regardless of whether she was suffering or not, and I have absolutely no sympathy for her whatsoever.

Call me a troll, or inhuman, whatever — I can't believe people are honestly getting slated here for not caring about Amy fucking Winehouse.

That 'Valerie' was good though.

People who were touched by her voice give a shit, personally if every american rapper bought it I wouldn't give a fuck. not really, I would at least show empathy

Another track you must hear if you did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ludxpkyrab0 amy's cover of will you still love me tomorrow.

I wasn't touched by her voice, though. And I can't empathise with something so self-destructive.

I feel sad that for the peole that have lost a daughter and a sister, but I can't say I care for manufactured singing.

I am assuming you know that winehouse was one of the only singers out there who wasn't manufactured and didn't use auto-tune. Frank came out of nowhere and then MTV base picked up on fuck me pumps which was the big starting break for her. This was right at the start of Sky digital and most of the music channels were phone in and request from a tiny corperate list ones and she didn't get on those till back to black.

edit: this was back in the late 90s when I was living in Brixton, I knew about her before MTV because the local club DJs all picked up on her and I saw her play several times.

She attended stage school from an early age. Which is no bad way to learn your craft, but, certainly, helpful.

Which is fine if you want to get into Byker Grove or Grange Hill type shows but trust me, yardies wouldn't have given a shit.

On reflection, I think you ate correct and I was wrong to have said that.

basically.

The thing that baffles me is this: She had oodles of money, which she clearly spent on drugs but could have spent on rehabilitation therapy, but she chose not to - either because she didn't want to (no, no, no) or because she wasn't of sound mind enough to make the rational decision.

My money's on the latter.

So why the hell did her parents, who are quoted above as saying essentially, "Yeah, we know she's on the way to her grave, but we're gonna do jack shit about it" not do more? If she didn't want to be treated, why didn't they force her? OK, she's an adult, but clearly not compos mentis enough to make decisions about her life.

I wouldn't blame her parents. Each adult individual is responsible for their own fate. My is sympathy reserved for people who have no choice about their health, and who battle every day to be able to do simple things like make a cup of tea. I'll run a fucking marathon to that end. But what I don't do is becry how sorry we should all feel for someone that ultimately fucked themselves up, particularly when they had every opportunity not to. There are far, far too many other people that are more worthy of your time.

Legally, she was perfectly compos mentis. Mental Health service don't, on a functional level, give two shits about problem drug use, despite the clear and inescapable fact that problem drug use is often as not a result of people self-medicating to control mental health issues.

Where do people get this idea about forcing others to quit this or that which is bad for them? Are you going to berate my mother for not forcing me to stop smoking? How would you force your nearest and dearest? Lock them up? Fill 'em with other (legal) drugs? Take them on Jeremy Kyle?

Were yardies her target demographic?

She would only have been 13-15 in the late 90s, when you saw her, Decca, so whether you see her as manufactured or not her stage training will have manufactured a 'performer' in some way. If her music spoke to you, then it is natural to care for her passing.

I think she could have had a talent, but it was hard to find it beneath that shambling wreck.

I don't think Chinny is inhumane not to care about her passing. OK, his words are rather blunt, cold perhaps, but if her music/persona didn't capture you why should you care about her death?

Because a life wasted so young is a tragic thing. Yes, I agree with that. But you don't care as much about all if the non-celebrity young deaths caused by drugs, because this forum isn't full if pages of threads about every heroin or crack addict that choked to death on their own vomit this month.

This isn't shocking, or a surprise. Everyone was waiting for it to happen.

And I don't personally feel sorry or upset for her. And I don't feel inhumane saying so, either.

She could have spent her money on drugs or 24 hour care to beat the addiction. The thing is, she never showed an interest in giving up the lifestyle… when a media figure in the spotlight swings between trying to clean themselves up and slipping back into an addiction and the media circus watches it like the horses on a carousel *then* it can seem sad and pathetic, but she never really seemed interested in cleaning herself up. I think (though am unsure) she may have been sectioned a few times, or threatened by the people who controlled her career to get help or lose her deal, but she never appeared to be fighting to clean up. So maybe she didn't make enough of an effort to fight that addiction, especially considering the wealth of help available to her which isn't available to the other druggie deaths which nobody bothers posting about.

The irony of you exemplifying the seemingly wilful irrationality and ignorance of the addict in your refusal to acknowledge the fundamentals of the issue is staggering.

I think the only way you'd learn is to suffer the same fate... and in the name of clarity and understanding, I sincerely wish it upon you. Let her story not be the only thing that is buried quickly.

Where'd you get this idea that the fight was potentially winnable?

Nah too late to jump on the bandwagon. It's not shocking any more and it was never clever.

I hope if you ever need it somebody shows you an ounce of compassion.

I wasn't aware of that, and can't say I agree with it (not saying you're wrong, saying that it's wrong that Mental Health don't treat cases like this as seriously as I would have thought they should.)


It's not quite the same thing, is it? If you were indulging in a cocktail of drugs, alcohol and God knows what else on a daily basis, so much so that you couldn't form a coherent sentence half the time, you clearly can't be trusted to look after yourself so somebody should step in. Smoking, while clearly destructive, isn't on the same level.

And if you're in that much of a mess, I don't think you're in any way capable of making important decisions like "Should I get therapy or not?" so someone should make those decisions for you.

I could quite possibly be thinking of somewhere else and not the UK, but I'm sure there's a precedent of people getting so messed up that decision-making is taken away from them because they're not of sound mind.

Death, and peoples reactions to it, is a subjective thing. We've seen this over two threads this weekend, and there is no right or wrong answer as to how people should feel about it. I hear GY's comments, and understand them - I do know a reformed crack addict, but agree there aren't many. While GY is the expert here, and I'll listen to his comments, I also however understand peoples views on the matter as most people don't have more than a passing interest in drug addiction, and so it is infrequent that our views are challenged.

I liked her music, and it is a shame we won't hear more of it. However, would we ever have heard anything as good as Back to Black again? I think that was never going to happen before yesterday, even if she had completely found her feet.

However, at the same time, I will quote cross-thread in the interest of balance.

Edit: fuck it.

I didn't ever say it was, but she'd not even tried. She wouldn't know if she could beat it, because she never seemed to even explore that possibility.

And people DO sometimes beat addictions, especially with the right support. And she, more than most, had access to that support.

Obviously, I have personal opinions on this. As most people here know, I lost a beautiful person to an overdose when I was in the second year of university, and I loved him very much. I don't feel sorry for him, and I'm still angry at the waste. But I don't see that Amy Winehouse deserves any more sorrow or upset than did that all but forgotten person.

In the other thread I was saying that about the news coverage, I don't see what that's got to do with the discussion about Amy Winehouse.

They're two different debates dealing with two different aspects of two very different events.

Well, since it seems 'I'm still here' as it were, I'll throw my hat into the ring on this one, as it has moved me a fair bit.

In a word, I'm totally with AE and Nemmie on this one. Amy Winehouse' no doubt lonely, sad death is clearly tragic on any human, empathetic level, a tragic waste of a young life - whatever anyone might think of her, or her music. (Personally I *love* her soulful, dark, deeply personal music; it speaks volumes to me at least - reduced me to tears last night, knowing she was dead).

I feel it is utterly stupid to say 'well, she had money, she could've sorted herself out'. Even if that were true - which it surely isn't - it's hardly the point, is it? Clearly her drug abuse/addictions were manifesting a deep form of self-loathing, self harm and escapism, for whatever reason? As someone who knows a thing or two about destructive, perverse, counter common sense addictions, not to mention a dash of self-loathing and irrational shame of my own, for that matter, I think I can empathise, even just a tiny bit. I suppose it's no surprise really that AE and Nemmie also think this way; we have common ground between us on this, I daresay.

Similarly, it's ludicrous to say 'we can't feel sorry for her 'cause of the people who got blown up in Norway'....? FFS! No-one would ever feel sorry for anyone, on those lines, except for that one person who got hacked to death, alive, in Rwanda - the most ghastly death imaginable. Shit, I feel sorry for someone who trips up in the street and grazes their knee - let alone a young woman genius with quite literally everything to live for and her entire life in front of her, who thinks death is the only answer.

As for the likes of the entire UK press who are only now proclaiming her as a 'prodigy' and a 'genius', before her body has even gone cold, and who - without doubt - made her life that much more unbearable and intolerable, with their unending, intrusive spite/hate - it just goes to prove everything that I said in the other thread: JOURNALISTS ARE CUNTS, THE END.

All Amy Winehouse needed was someone to show her genuine, absolute, unconditional love and empathy - a non-cunt husband, if you will. Yes, it's terribly old-fashioned to say 'she just needed a good man', I'm sure, and will no doubt illicit the usual response from the 'forum cunts crew'. But it's true, as far as I'm concerned.

Not quite, but nearly.




I'd argue that cancer care costs society as much as chronic off-tittedness.



But then, if you're in that much of a mess, are you legally responsible for, say, the violent crimes that get committed by drunks? "Sorry I ran GazChap's Mum over, your honour - I've got a drink problem so I'm not legally responsible. I can has detox instead of jail?"

Allowing people to abdicate more responsibility will simply lead to some giving less of a shit than they already do. Who is going to pay for these 'self-inflicted' problem bearer's decision making? No cunt wants those jobs now, let alone any new ones created.



If people believed they had an ounce of control in the first place they'd never have cultivated an addiction. Taking people in hand, viewed in terms of self-verification theory and confirmation bias just tells them they were right to abuse themselves in the first place and, in some cases, that the people who abused them as children were right, too - and they don't deserve control. It's a VERY dangerous game to play.

All the lives I've helped save I put down to the basis of my practice being that the individual is the expert in their own lives and the expert in their own problem, and that they take a lead in forming solutions. Even the CPA in mental health services is based, where possible, upon this model.

Yeah, sure there's a right answer to it, it's called 'common decency'. How dare you even show your fucking face around here, in this thread of all places, is utterly beyond my wildest comprehension?

Why don't you just crawl back under that filthy rock that you came from, you disgusting human being.

Potentially that's utter bollocks. The only way you'd know if she'd tried for sure was if it worked. And you simply do not have a clue whether she did or not, none of us do.

Nemmie, I can't say you are a poster I'd ever noticed before last night so I don't really know your history on these issues and if you have a history if being "right on" or just shouting down anyone who dares give a counterpoint to your argument..

Malabelm is entitled to his opinion. It was obvious to pretty much everyone that this is going to happen to her. If you drive a car around at 100mph eventually you are probably going to crash. Therefore excuse people if they don't have much sympathy.

I can't improve on that and refer anyone still debating with me back to this post.

Thank you mate, that means a great deal.

2 Types of people in this world... those whose sympathy for those they don't know only extends as far as third parties rational behaviour, and those whose sympathy extends as far as saying "hey, I feel sorry for that chap who feels he has to drive at 100mph all the time". And 100mph guy's victims, too.

I think it comes down to how much love you've got in your heart, really. I've got an infinite amount, and this thread's too small for it. Sorry.

I think the media delight in reporting on the death of someone they helped to knock down and the public interest in the gory detail do give some resonance to the quote. Perhaps it is a spectacle rather than an actual care about the death of acting woman that grabs the public attention, much like it might be the details of how so many young people lost their lives in terror at trying to escape a man armed to teeth whilst stuck on an island rather than the actual loss of so much young life full of potential that keeps people interested in the Oslo shootings.

And, to Nemmie, perhaps - as for whether people personally *care* about Amy Winehouse or not, well, I don't think you can make yourself care about someone if you aren't naturally inclined to do so. I am saddened by the loss of life, but I can't make myself care for her more than any other stranger. I don't think I'm a bad person for that, I just don't think she was any more or less important than other people with similar addictions.

If I told you that James Dralling from, I don't know, Leeds perhaps, died last night of a crack and alcohol binge, and I don't know him, you've never met or heard if him, nobody here knows this man, how much do you care? The loss of life of this man, let's say he's Winehouse's age, is sad because he's lost his life.

But many people would think 'oh' and never think of it again. Not because they are inhumane, but because we can't care about everyone, and not everyone will care about Amy Winehouse.

I thought Cavey's point about feeling sorry for someone who trips and grazes a knee in the street pretty much sums it all up. If you genuinely 'couldn't give a fuck' about her death, you're a bit of a cunt, frankly. Sure, there are more important things to be concerned with, non-famous folk dying all of the time, but that's no reason to spite the lass and show her no sympathy whatsoever. By feeling even the slightest bit sad about Winehouse, I'm in no way taking anything away from Norway. Or Somalia where atrocities are committed daily. Or anywhere else.

If you have a problem with the news coverage, take it up with the papers. Also have a look at 'news values' and start being a little more realistic with regards to the business that is journalism and stop being so shocked when they give a story like this massive coverage. And definitely don't let the fucked up news coverage of world events and how they rank them skew your basic sense of sympathy and empathy.