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Communications Data Bill
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2187
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Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 22:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7674775.stm

Dear christ.

Author:  sinister agent [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

ComicalGnomes wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7674775.stm

Dear christ.


My jaw is desperate to hit the floor.

Quote:
She asked: "How much more control can they have? How far is he prepared to go to undermine civil liberties?"

Mr Hoon interjected: "To stop terrorists killing people in our society, quite a long way actually."


TERRORISTS ARE NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY, YOU WITLESS FUCKING ARSEHOLE.

Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Fucking hell. So much for going to bed in a good mood. I don't even know where to begin.

BBC link wrote:
In exchanges on BBC One's Question Time he also said he was prepared to go "quite a long way" in undermining civil liberties to stop people being killed.


At which border are the enemy troops massing?
or
Where is the armed insurrection against the constitutional order?

In those circumstances, we can argue the case for a relaxation on normal safeguards for the purpose of the emergency. There isn't one. A group of fantasists who got lucky one day the tube does not count.

If Mr Hoon is worried about 'people being killed' I look forward to the immediate banning of the automobile.

Author:  sinister agent [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I think he should lead by example, and tell us all about where his friends and former lovers live, who he talks to on every phone call, what about, where, and why. And he should have a camera installed in his toilet of course, so we know he's not plotting to kill anyone while in there. Why not? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO HIDE, HOONY BOY?

Author:  Dudley [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

sinister agent wrote:

TERRORISTS ARE NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY, YOU WITLESS FUCKING ARSEHOLE.


Their answer of course would be "Yes, because of our measures".

Top work by that rarest of things, known excellent MP Julia Goldsworthy there though.

Author:  sinister agent [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Dudley wrote:
sinister agent wrote:

TERRORISTS ARE NOT KILLING PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETY, YOU WITLESS FUCKING ARSEHOLE.


Their answer of course would be "Yes, because of our measures".

Top work by that rarest of things, known excellent MP Julia Goldsworthy there though.


In which case, you reply "then there's no need for any more, is there?"

Author:  GazChap [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

But surely that makes you some sort of terrorist, right?

Fucking hell, it depresses me to realise that 95% of the people in the country won't ever hear about this bill and it'll get voted into an Act before anyone know what's up.

Author:  Scarysheep3000 [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 23:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Parliament can make or unmake any law it likes.

I'm scared, daddy.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 0:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Quote:
Hoon in that clip: "The biggest civil liberty of all is not to be killed by a terrorist"


NO NO NO NO NO NO FUCKING NO NO IT ISN'T YOU FUCKING FUCK

Kill me, kill my family, rape me, burn my children.

I would wish them all before I wish for 60million people to be watched, followed, judged. For privacy to die, for freedom to be squashed, for such knowledge and power to rest in the governments hands. For the great experiment that is freedom to bloody end.

Freedom first, safety second, you cowardly evil fuck.

Author:  sinister agent [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 0:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

What Lave said. My 'right' to be immortal and never live with the 0.00001% chance of suffering the consequences of living in a country that prospers from slaughtering and exploiting thousands of millions of people does not trump the right of 60 million people to live without strangers peering into every private detail of their lives. Not least because it doesn't fucking exist.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 0:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'm actually seething.

I just got up to finish a book and thought I would refresh some sites. To get that.

If it wasn't for Julia Goldsworthy in that clip, I would probably have doubled that font size.

So we got 850 people to read skeptobot, and about 10 to 20 people on Penny Arcade to write to their MP. After a days hard work.

And that CUNT says that. And he gets cheers. And he gets to say it on TV - to what a million? We are fucked. :(

EDIT: Not the best sleepy angry depressed post to be top of the page. Sorry, I'll stomp back off to bed now.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 0:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Sign the petition!

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/no-to-1984/

Author:  Cras [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:


Shame about the shockingly cliche-ridden wording of the petition explanation.



(er - it's not your petition, is it?)

Author:  Scarysheep3000 [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Letter sent. Petition signed.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Aha! It's obvious really. This is actually a cunning plan to get terrorists to prop up the flagging Royal Mail by forcing them into using post, the only remaining untraceable long distance communication method!

Author:  sinister agent [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Apart from public libraries and internet caféfés, of which there are ... ooh, well under a million in london alone. Oops, eh?

Author:  Kern [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Dam it, wish I could write like this:

Quauquam Blog! wrote:
But who is to be more greatly admired - someone who sacrifices their life in the name of saving liberty or someone who sacrifices their liberty in the name of saving lifes?


From http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog ... rial-poll/

Will need to find a way to be civil to my MP on this matter. I normally am, but given my mood this morning I doubt the letter would display this. Do you think he'd like a DVD of 'The Lives of Others'?

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'll get a letter off over the weekend. land law calls me at the moment.

Ordered a printer last night, hurray!

Author:  myp [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Excellent letter, oh Lordly one. I have stolen it and am sending it to my MP via post, as he seems like a bit of a Luddite.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Craster wrote:
Lave wrote:


Shame about the shockingly cliche-ridden wording of the petition explanation.



(er - it's not your petition, is it?)


Nowt to do with me, someone just left it as a comment on Skeptobot. I think once one has started it's best to stick with the first that pops up, rather than make another with better wording. The actual thing you sign is fine though.

"That Communications Data Bill, thats shit that is"

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:
Quote:
Hoon in that clip: "The biggest civil liberty of all is not to be killed by a terrorist"


NO NO NO NO NO NO FUCKING NO NO IT ISN'T YOU FUCKING FUCK

Kill me, kill my family, rape me, burn my children.

I would wish them all before I wish for 60million people to be watched, followed, judged. For privacy to die, for freedom to be squashed, for such knowledge and power to rest in the governments hands. For the great experiment that is freedom to bloody end.

Freedom first, safety second, you cowardly evil fuck.


Or to go for a slightly more succint version.

"Not to be killed by a car is a pretty good civil liberty. Let's ban all cars."

This government seems to support continued depletion of quality of life until there's no life left to protect. Citizen.

Quote:
If it wasn't for Julia Goldsworthy in that clip, I would probably have doubled that font size.


Well exactly. Having seen the actual exchange on Question Time Extra her "What the Christ?" reaction was exactly mine too.

Craster wrote:
Aha! It's obvious really. This is actually a cunning plan to get terrorists to prop up the flagging Royal Mail by forcing them into using post, the only remaining untraceable long distance communication method!


Indeed, I wonder why the government aren't proposing to open and read all posted mail..... Perhaps because people would realise that's too far, even though it's exactly what's being proposed here?

Kern wrote:
Dam it, wish I could write like this:


So does the blogger, that's a paraphrase of Ben Franklin's "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

or as he also put it, ""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.".

Author:  Kern [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Dudley wrote:
Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."


That's a good one. I'm a fan of the usual Ben Franklin quote but have been on the lookout for others. Also the one from 'A Man for all seasons', which I should watch some day*.

I think I might need a drunken Tom Paine reading session tonight to cheer myself up.

I'd be interested to hear what replies people get and what parties our MPs are from.

* Here:

'A Man for all seasons' by Robert Bolt wrote:
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'd like a drunken Tom Paine to read to me too.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:

Of course, by doing so, you're giving the Government the addresses and emails of all the awkward anti-establishment troublemakers that they should probably start surveilling with this new power in order to gather sufficient evidence for spurious (and secret) charges under the various terrorism offences and then lock them up in Belmarsh.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

Author:  itsallwater [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Surely all this means is that everyone will start using encryption and loads of proxies. Granted it's more and more complex to do so but I wouldn't be surprised the Government bring laws into limiting encryption too and shutting down access to proxies.

Author:  Squirt [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I don't know how many civilians have been killed in Britain by terrorists in total since the war - a few hundred, maybe a thousand if you add all the vaguely related IRA turf war killings and so on. Overall, this is less than the number of people who die from, for instance, Marfan Syndrome. How far are the government willing to go to stop Marfan Syndrome? Is not the greatest civil liberty the freedom from Marfan Syndrome? Marfan Syndrome is killing people in this country right now!

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Or we could all call ten random phone numbers and visit ten random websites every day, and poison the data pool, as it were.

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

itsallwater wrote:
Surely all this means is that everyone will start using encryption and loads of proxies. Granted it's more and more complex to do so but I wouldn't be surprised the Government bring laws into limiting encryption too and shutting down access to proxies.


Or indeed just sending 99% of stuff by post where there's no record of a sender.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lord Chris wrote:
Lave wrote:

Of course, by doing so, you're giving the Government the addresses and emails of all the awkward anti-establishment troublemakers that they should probably start surveilling with this new power in order to gather sufficient evidence for spurious (and secret) charges under the various terrorism offences and then lock them up in Belmarsh.

*puts on tinfoil hat*


Thats whats wonderful we'll drown out all the signal. Especially when

itsallwater wrote:
Surely all this means is that everyone will start using encryption and loads of proxies. Granted it's more and more complex to do so but I wouldn't be surprised the Government bring laws into limiting encryption too and shutting down access to proxies.


happens.

Except it won't be everyone, it'll be a minute % of us.

But still even 50,000 doing all there browsing and facebooking through Tor will make the terrorists using Tor all the harder to trace.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I like my random phone calls thing. It would make for an ace new year resolution, plus you get to talk to new people.

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:
itsallwater wrote:
Surely all this means is that everyone will start using encryption and loads of proxies. Granted it's more and more complex to do so but I wouldn't be surprised the Government bring laws into limiting encryption too and shutting down access to proxies.


happens.

Except it won't be everyone, it'll be a minute % of us.

But still even 50,000 doing all there browsing and facebooking through Tor will make the terrorists using Tor all the harder to trace.


Indeed, but it will be everyone in the "Do not good" camp.

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I actually think that if I believed that this kind of thing would genuinely be used in a responsible manner, with no 'just one more thing we need to collect' agenda creeping it towards putting a camera in your bathroom and no 'well, let's use this data for all sorts of fun things' abuse on the horizon, then I wouldn't actually mind this entity existing.

For much the same reason I don't mind armed response tactical units having firearms, but would oppose giving guns to every officer.

Author:  Kern [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I don't think the government are evil. I think they're cowardly. They don't know how to deal with the unexpected so come up with these schemes as a comfort blanket so when something bad happens they can tell their opponents 'well, you opposed this measure' and hope to look good.
I dread to think what would happen in a real crisis. I can't imagine Brown with a machine gun from the window of Downing Street as invaders take London. He is no Churchill.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Kern wrote:
He is no Churchill


For a start he doesn't drink. Or take crack sweets.

We need *real* politicans, damnit.

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

At least we're not in Australia folks!

http://www.infoworld.com/news/feeds/08/ ... ?source=gs

Author:  Kern [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

And what's the betting it'll be adopted here soon? For the good of the children, mind...*



* Children that is. Not hoodie-wearing, knife-wielding, yobs.

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

In other news, this is article 12 of the European declaration of human rights...

Quote:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


There's your legal challenge to this right here.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Oooh shit, thats a good point Dudley.

Got and a good reference? If not I'll find one myself later.

I'll add that to Skeptobot. I think I will contact my MP with it too.

(Also: Lord Chris - I updated the Ref to you to make it clearer you wrote the awesome - but do you want it changed to Lord?)

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:
Oooh shit, thats a good point Dudley.

Got and a good reference? If not I'll find one myself later.


From the very top sir

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Also, this will no doubt come to the UK almost immediately after.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 03,00.html

Author:  Squirt [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Quote:
...nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation


To right. Anyone attempting to besmirch my honour or reputation is going to be meeting me in Hyde Park at dawn with their second.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Unless you want to get all Heisenberg on their arses, I imagine you'll have trouble persuading a court that monitoring is 'interference'.

Author:  markg [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Eh? How not, when it comes to privacy?

Author:  kalmar [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Craster wrote:
Unless you want to get all Heisenberg on their arses


Do that anyway for teh lulz please.

Author:  Dudley [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Craster wrote:
Unless you want to get all Heisenberg on their arses, I imagine you'll have trouble persuading a court that monitoring is 'interference'.


I agree with Mark, monitoring is the very definition of interfering with privacy.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 14:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Squirt wrote:
Quote:
...nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation


To right. Anyone attempting to besmirch my honour or reputation is going to be meeting me in Hyde Park at dawn with their second.

You sir are a scruffian, and, I strongly suspect, a Whig. I am also given to understand you habitually use the butter knife in both the butter and the confits. You cad, sir. You are entirely without honour.

Author:  markg [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 15:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Dudley wrote:
I agree with Mark

Yay, I will make an entry in my calendar and commemorate this occurrence annually.

Author:  Cras [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 15:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Ah - my mistake. I fixated on the 'correspondence' part, and was stating that monitoring is not 'interfering with' correspondence. It is, of course, interfering with privacy.

Author:  Squirt [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 15:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lord Chris wrote:
You sir are a scruffian, and, I strongly suspect, a Whig. I am also given to understand you habitually use the butter knife in both the butter and the confits. You cad, sir. You are entirely without honour.


Insolence sir! Insolence! I will not take such words from the likes of you! Why, I have heard rumours that you passed the port to the right whilst dining with the Earl of Gloucester! You are no gentleman!

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 15:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Cheers Dudley!

Author:  Dr Lave [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 15:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Just noticed that if you want to tell Geoff Hoon that despite his beliefs you would rather be blown to smitherines by Terrorists than lose your freedoms you can let him know here:
http://www.geoffhoonmp.co.uk/contact/.

I'm just being an evil pirate to download the Question Time talk via iplayer-dl (fair use is a crime!), and I'm going to try to make a youtube video detailing the ridiculous things he says, then recommending you let him know you disagree.

Thats if I can resist just flashing the word CUNT repeatedly over the text.

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