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The end of the UK?
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Author:  Cavey [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

LOL @ Troops. Classy, there. :D

Yup, that'll be the conspiracy bullshit, grievance whining and gnashing of teeth that I mentioned earlier; these people will never accept anything so utterly trivial as the emphatically stated, democratic will of the Scots electorate, as expressed by a record number of them, in their droves.

Personally speaking I wish the margin for No was even greater, but +10.6% isn't to be sniffed at. In GE terms, that'd be an absolute *landslide*.

God save the Union. Cheers! :)

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Well, to that I can only respond with this:


Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

asfish wrote:
Where was that posted?!


Copied into here, apparently it was a facebook post from someone.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topi ... #seperator

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

FFS, even Stu admits the result.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

In my opinion it was there for the winning for the Yes campaign, but they made the usual mistake of playing to the home crowd.
The nationalism and utopian rhetoric made the already yes voters even more rabid in their support, but did nothing for the more reserved and worried no voters. The yes campaign needed to be more specific about policy and the future, and allay the fears of the practical voter. They didn't need to get the votes of the utopia seekers, they already had them!

Author:  Grim... [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Right - when does rUK get to vote to say if we actually want them?

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

The whole "more devolution" thing is an absolute can of worms, and is going to be hugely amusing to watch unfold. There will inevitably be an increased resentment in England if something isn't done to set up equivalent regions with equivalent powers. England has a population of some 53 million versus Scotland's 5, and yet for some reason Scotland needs pandering to as soon as they chuck their toys out of the pram whereas the good burghers of, say, Yorkshire (pop. 4.9m) don't. I also noted Hague slightly dodged the question about increased spending on Scotland being entrenched by the new constitutional changes... This is all grist to the nationalist/UKIP types’ mill

Interesting times ahead, and unfortunately we don‘t have the most unifying figure at the helm.

EDIT - I'd be all in favour of decentralisation of government, but we certainly need to do it equitably, and not just for those who make the most noise.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

So if Scotland is now emphatically north UK, does that make Newcastle and Liverpool the midlands, and Yorkshire in the south?

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

In fairness to Stu, a quite dignified sign off blog post from him on his site, I thought.
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Osn'the "small government" what the US tea party want and we laugh at them?

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Cavey wrote:
In fairness to Stu, a quite dignified sign off blog post from him on his site, I thought.
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Really? "We only lost because of a giant conspiracy theory and because everyone was too stupid to agree with me and now the world's going to end" is not really what I'd call dignified.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

The quick squizz I have had through the news articles seems to suggest that Scotland is populated by attractive but tearful 18-25 year old women.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

MaliA wrote:
The quick squizz I have had through the news articles seems to suggest that Scotland is populated by attractive but tearful 18-25 year old women.

<gets on bus>

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Cavey wrote:
In fairness to Stu, a quite dignified sign off blog post from him on his site, I thought.
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Really? "We only lost because of a giant conspiracy theory and because everyone was too stupid to agree with me and now the world's going to end" is not really what I'd call dignified.


Take your point, but it could've been worse. At least he's accepted the result with some modicum of grace.

(Mind you, some of the subsequent comments don't look too clever...)

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Cavey wrote:
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Which site are you reading? I've given him the hit and found a whiny diatribe about how the country 'bottled it', rather than a humilifying admission that the Yes camp simply failed to make the case. Like every other sour grape merchant, he's blamed fear for the defeat, instead of the simple truth that the nonsense was built on dreams and not reality.

Meanwhile there's no mention of the fact that he asked for, and was funded for, a full year of rabid blog-posting. Now he alleges to be taking time off to 'consider', which I take to mean doing fuck all while spending the money of others. He pathetic cult of followers have begged him to remain, and no doubt some of the more idiotic will throw good money after bad in the attempt to keep him writing *something*.

His wearied, depressive defeat is absolutely delightful, considering he's being the willing vendor of barely concealed hatred and the instigator if cybernat mobs for the last 18 months. The schadenfreude for his woe brings a smile to my face.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

The results if it had been first past the post...

Image

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

The whole country would have voted for an independent fuscia?

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Yeah, well, I've always had a soft spot for old Stu, despite everything.

I feel sorry for him - which I know he'll hate - but still. It's a pisser to lose everything you've passionately hoped for.

EDIT: That's an amazing graphic, Troop. Very revealing I'd say.

Author:  asfish [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Which site are you reading? I've given him the hit and found a whiny diatribe about how the country 'bottled it', rather than a humilifying admission that the Yes camp simply failed to make the case. Like every other sour grape merchant, he's blamed fear for the defeat, instead of the simple truth that the nonsense was built on dreams and not reality.

Meanwhile there's no mention of the fact that he asked for, and was funded for, a full year of rabid blog-posting. Now he alleges to be taking time off to 'consider', which I take to mean doing fuck all while spending the money of others. He pathetic cult of followers have begged him to remain, and no doubt some of the more idiotic will throw good money after bad in the attempt to keep him writing *something*.

His wearied, depressive defeat is absolutely delightful, considering he's being the willing vendor of barely concealed hatred and the instigator if cybernat mobs for the last 18 months. The schadenfreude for his woe brings a smile to my face.



He has done well to get £250,000 of donations from willing people to post a blog and make a living out of it. What was his plan if it was a Yes vote? You could argue that there would have been less for him to do if the vote went to Yes as he had in effect been successful with his blog.

Author:  Bamba [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Talking of which, is the STV news site known for it's biting satire and I've been missing out by ignoring it all this time:

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/292504-indy ... -campaign/

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

asfish wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Fair play; credit where it's due.

Which site are you reading? I've given him the hit and found a whiny diatribe about how the country 'bottled it', rather than a humilifying admission that the Yes camp simply failed to make the case. Like every other sour grape merchant, he's blamed fear for the defeat, instead of the simple truth that the nonsense was built on dreams and not reality.

Meanwhile there's no mention of the fact that he asked for, and was funded for, a full year of rabid blog-posting. Now he alleges to be taking time off to 'consider', which I take to mean doing fuck all while spending the money of others. He pathetic cult of followers have begged him to remain, and no doubt some of the more idiotic will throw good money after bad in the attempt to keep him writing *something*.

His wearied, depressive defeat is absolutely delightful, considering he's being the willing vendor of barely concealed hatred and the instigator if cybernat mobs for the last 18 months. The schadenfreude for his woe brings a smile to my face.



He has done well to get £250,000 of donations from willing people to post a blog and make a living out of it. What was his plan if it was a Yes vote? You could argue that there would have been less for him to do if the vote went to Yes as he had in effect been successful with his blog.


A Yes vote would have meant months and months more work reviewing what was going on. A no vote stops it all to a point as once Parliament does its thing that is it. The change narrative is shorter with No.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Bamba wrote:
Talking of which, is the STV news site known for it's biting satire and I've been missing out by ignoring it all this time:

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/292504-indy ... -campaign/

Thats quite fabulous. Has one of the interns had enough and gone postal?

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
The whole country would have voted for an independent fuscia?

Oh come on, fuckers.

Author:  Cavey [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

<snigger, snort>

Yeah, impossible not to belly laugh, sorry. :D

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

I've got a BT engineer here at the moment and he looks properly fucking miserable. I dare not ask.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I've got a BT engineer here at the moment and he looks properly fucking miserable. I dare not ask.


Ask him if his name is William.

Author:  DavPaz [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

His name is Stuart William Stuart and the price of woad has tripled overnight

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I've got a BT engineer here at the moment and he looks properly fucking miserable. I dare not ask.

You'll be lucky if he doesn't leave a massive keech somewhere in your house, you imperialist English scum.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Hey as long as he leaves me with a working phone line I don't care if he smears 'FREEDOM' over the walls in shit.

Author:  MaliA [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Way to fuck up my "Phone Bill" joke.

Author:  Morte [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

So now we've got that out of the way: How long will it be before the media moves onto two plus years of "noise" about the proposed In / Out of the EU vote?

Two+ years of Nigel Farrage, just shoot me now.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

If we've got a bullet going spare, just shoot Farage.

Author:  Curiosity [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

What will be painful to watch is 'Better Together' people suddenly banging on about being better apart.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Amazing how one day the Scots are the bravest, canniest folk in the world who are going to build Utopia; and the next day half of them are idiotic, timorous fearties taken in by teh evilz English media scare stories.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Oh, dear lord...

https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-w ... al-parties

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Jesus Christ.

Author:  TheCookie197 [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

asfish wrote:
Cameron will also start so see UK backlash now, personally I don't see why Scotland gets more money per head from Westminster and has free prescriptions and the UK doesn't.


By the 'UK', I'll assume you mean Wales, England and Northern Ireland. Ireland gets MORE per head than Scotland. Wales gets more than England, but a bit less than Scotland. And England gets the least.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Northern Ireland gets more because they have to pay for more policing due to the absolute nutters who live there. I'd be equally as happy for NI to feck off and rejoin Eire, frankly. I have no idea why we want it as part of the UK.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

I'm very interested to hear about how you're feeling about the result and the future cookie.

Author:  TheCookie197 [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I'm very interested to hear about how you're feeling about the result and the future cookie.


Unhappy, obviously. But also unsurprised. Bit confused as to why some 'strongholds' ended up with such narrow votes. (No idea why North Ayrshire ended up a No.)
I think my views are best explained by my facebook post this morning:

Facebook wrote:
Yesterday, Scotland voted No. Today, 1.9 million people will rejoice, while 1.5 million will stagger through the day in disbelief.
On the 16th of October 2014, Gordon Brown will bring a debate to the house of Commons about Scotland receiving more powers.

Many are saying it's turned into a "win-win" for Alex Salmond, but it will end up being far from that. Many MPs have already shown that they HATE the idea of ANY more powers for Scotland. When it comes to the time for them to vote on it, over two thirds of them are expected to vote No to carry the motion of giving more powers. Even if we ARE given new powers, it will be nothing on the scale of what Gordon Brown has said, and absolutely nothing like 'Devo-Max'.
Let's not forget that if we do get new powers, it will likely be ones that require money to function. If they give them to us, where will we get money now? Westminster is not going to give us any more of our own, it's too busy being used to build duck ponds.

So, that's it. Few (if any) new powers, no preventing poverty, no closing food banks, no looking after our own country like 200 others around the world.

I hope Scotland really DID think about what it was doing, but looking at the result?
I doubt enough of us did.


I'm worried about these new powers. I'm worried Westminster will give us powers that require money that we won't have due to the cuts being made on the Budget.
I'm worried about the future.

Author:  Trooper [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

The same FPTP picture as before, but shaded by percentages. (plus other analysis)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-29255449

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
I have no idea why we want it as part of the UK.

I'm quite disappointed you've posted that chap. I've met many a lovely norn iron folk, and while there's much difficult history, more recent than any gripe Scotland thinks it has I'm happy to have them in the gang if they want to be included.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

I wasn't being entirely serious, gnomes.

However, there is a valid question to be asked from all corners of the union as to why it exists, and what's in it for the various bits. On a purely monetary level, I'm not sure the average englisher would, if asked, vote to keep NI, Wales and Scotland in the union.

Author:  ElephantBanjoGnome [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

To Cookie, I'd ask you to stay your worry and see what comes of the next 6 months. I think it would be foolish on the extreme to further alienate the nationalist element of Scotland by failing to come through with the greater devolved powers as promised. As someone who has always supported greater devolution, it would piss me off as much as anyone if we got fobbed off, and I wouldn't forgive that lightly.

My hope is that, as much as I hate to say it, this will be the best of both. Max devolved powers, control over income and spending while benefitting from what the UK offers.

If this doesn't happen for any reason, the betrayal will persist until a referendum happens again, and the result a second time won't even be close.

Author:  TheCookie197 [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

What powers have they said we are actually going to have? All I've heard about is tax, tax and tax.

Author:  MrChris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 13:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

That said – in all honesty I can’t really see why NI is still part of the Union, because of how we came to own it in the first place. We only had it in the first place because we nicked Ireland, and then only gave back some of it, keeping the bit that the Proddies lived in because they were scared of the pope and it was politically inexpedient at the time to go against them, and have kept hold of it since because a sizeable minority can’t behave like grown ups and stop shooting each other without being made to.

Wales I can understand, because it’s never actually been a country; rather it's just the bit of the kingdom the heir to the throne gets to practise on.*

I’m half Irish, by the way, and have very little sense of English (or any other) national identity, considering the Treaty of Westphalia to be something of a step backwards in human social evolution.


On the devolution point - I still think the Tories are going to massively screw Scotland over, by making it conditional on carving Labour Scottish MPs out of votes on "English" issues (like key things such as the NHS, for example), making any future Labour government hamstrung from the outset.

*Nationalism note to Gaywood - not being entirely serious here. ;)

Author:  Kern [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 14:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Cookie197 wrote:
All I've heard about is tax, tax and tax.


The ability to raise your own money through taxation, rather than rely on a grant, is generally considered to be better and a sign of more independence and discretion than being solely dependent on a central government grant that could be removed or reduced on a whim. Of course, it also means you have to think carefully about the rate you set it, and whether you have the taxbase to pay it. But it's your money, not Westminster's.

Author:  asfish [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 14:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Cookie197 wrote:
What powers have they said we are actually going to have? All I've heard about is tax, tax and tax.


Taxes, how the NHS is Scotland is run and also the continuation of the Barnett allocation.

The usual politician pledge no dates, key points interlinked to each other and all 3 leaders having different details on things like taxes.

Hate to say this but don't hold your breath as they are all lying slippery tossers,

Author:  DavPaz [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
the bit that that Proddies lived in
Who were only there in the first place because the English put them there. And they were Scots :)

Author:  Kern [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 14:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: The end of the UK?

I never thought I would live to see the day when the Barnett formula was part of everyday conversation.

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