And fair play to you, because (unlike most others in this thread, I think) through your work you walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I don't. I'm not personally upset about this. I can understand it's a wasted life on an intellectual level, but she's too far outside my Dunbar's Number for me to really feel anything. It's not commendable but it's the truth.

What makes BEEX is the ability to have a reasoned debate from all viewpoints without the need to be rude and confrontational. Sure we have robust debates on here, but rarely am I at the point where I am about to PM the mods to point out a poster/posters are not being excellent. Not being excellent doesn't mean having an opposing viewpoint, it means trying to shout the loudest and being unable to accept that other people might have a different viewpoint.

What makes some other forums so repugnant is that "debate" only extends as far as whatever the group think is and that those who shout loudest and are most confrontational win the day. This is not a fan forum. It's a place where people debate all sorts of stuff some of which can be challenging some of it can be frivolous.

The great thing about BEEX is that you can have a raging debate on one thread and then be happily chatting on XBox live to the same person that very evening. I'd like to keep it that way.

Well TBH Doc I think if the other 'not that bothered' folks in this thread had expressed their feelings in such terms, no one would have really felt the need to take issue with their position.

Sadly, all the love and support in the world wasn’t going to help Amy get better. She was trotted out on stage at every opportunity to make money for her record company. She didn’t have the luxury of being left alone so she could get better. Contracts had been signed and albums were due. Her star had to keep shining, and all the while the press were snapping at her heels, waiting for her to fall again.

And fair play to you, because (unlike most others in this thread, I think) through your work you walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I don't. I'm not personally upset about this. I can understand it's a wasted life on an intellectual level, but she's too far outside my Dunbar's Number for me to really feel anything. It's not commendable but it's the truth.

Fuck off, you jumped up little twerp.

Fuck off, you jumped up little twerp.

Oh, well done. Really exercising those debatin' muscles this evening, I see. You've really cut me down to size there. I'll certainly think twice before posting here again and risking another blistering blast of witty yet withering put-downs.

Not convinced there's any need for that Cavey?

TBH I think DocG expressed the 'not bothered' position with more honesty and diplomacy than anyone else managed.

I still can't understand how anyone isn't upset about Amy Winehouse's life and her slow and terrible death (which was basically a lonely and painful suicide extended over a number of years), and as such Doc saying he doesn't 'really feel anything' just doesn't compute with me at all.

But at the same time fella, no need for outright abuse surely? TBH it debases your position and does you a disservice, especially in light of the wonderful post you made earlier in this thread that GovYard highlighted

Well, it doesn't take much, does it?

What the fuck do you know about who has, or has not 'walked the walk' as you put it? I know for a fact that a few of us here have seen a good deal more of life than what staring at a screen all our miserable, pointless, bitter little lives, or perhaps reading whatever Google throws up to our inane, misdirected enquiries. There's no 'debate' with someone like you - you're beyond intellectual redemption, pal.

Still, I thought my response to you was quite "humorous" - it's a subjective thing, after all, right? You little twat.

Sorry AE mate.

The little prick just annoys the crap out of me.

Getting it back on track. Winehouse on Buzzcocks

From this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYlpHBLtL0
To this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6arITjLxA

Unfortunately the thread locking caused me to lose a long post defending myself against Cavey.

The gist was: based on the demographics of Beex, most of us are unlikely to have had very much experience dealing with fatal drug addictions. Certainly, I do not, and am happy to admit so. The exceptions -- people like GY or Nemmie or Mimi -- have viewpoints that are probably a little more deserving of attention, as they have firsthand knowledge of the issues. Whatever else Cavey read is his own business because it's not what I wrote.

I'm...... off to the pub.

You're kind of missing the point Doc it's not a case of whether the posters to this thread have personal experiences of fatal drug addictions or not, that's immaterial when it comes to the fundamental underlying human tragedy of Amy Winehouse's life and death, you don't need to have 'been there and done it or been close to it' to empthasise or sympathise with what happened, and it doesn't preclude caring about what happened either.

The snidey comments at the end of his post were designed to provoke a reaction but I have to agree that your first post was a lot more constructive.

I'm just not all that fussed that she died, and I don't really see why that should make me lacking as a human being in some fundamental way. I was far more upset by the death of Prof. Richard Holmes a couple of months ago, but I fully accept that his passing would have been greeted by a chorus of shrugs and "who?" from most people. I genuinely don't see why I have to care or feel empathy for every celebrity death, needless or otherwise. Some who have touched, influenced or enriched my life, yes, but not everyone.

Considering lots of people no doubt look up to her in a role-model sense, I'm pleased she's finally setting an appropriate example.

Been waiting for you to say something like this. Nice of you not to let me down.

I liked the bit where your lack of web skills made you lose your big post.

I liked the bit when hermione climbed out the lake. But was then disappointed that she didnt follow Harry and Rons lead.

You keep your slash fiction in its own thread, you deviant.

I liked the bit where Cavey was fantastically rude to me.

Broadly, if I may over-summarise (at risk of offending people), I think opinions across the thread seemed to vary between "she had every opportunity to kick the habit and still didn't, so I find it hard to feel sorry for her" and "addiction and self-destructive tendencies doesn't work like that". If all the people with firsthand experience of addiction are of the latter viewpoint (I don't know that they are, and I have no opinions on this myself), that's an important distinction.

It seems to me that one's ability to genuinely feel sorry for her (I don't mean in an intellectual sense, but in a deep-in-the-gut sense) is probably tied to how one thinks about addiction itself because that in turn defines if one thinks of Winehouse as a victim or a fool. The former worldview invites compassion, of course, and the latter less so.

In the absence of anyone here actually knowing her (and thus experiencing genuine grief), I think these preconceptions about how addictive personalities work -- and the tension between different people's beliefs -- are the dynamic that is driving the discussion. I could be wrong though. Do people agree?

http://www.mrpaparazzi.com/post/15782/Russell-Brand-pens-a-moving-tribute-to-Amy-Winehouse.aspx
I think this sums it up nicely.

"Now Amy Winehouse is dead, like many others whose unnecessary deaths have been retrospectively romanticised, at 27 years old. Whether this tragedy was preventable or not is now irrelevant. It is not preventable today. We have lost a beautiful and talented woman to this disease. Not all addicts have Amy’s incredible talent. Or Kurt’s or Jimi’s or Janis’s, some people just get the affliction. All we can do is adapt the way we view this condition, not as a crime or a romantic affectation but as a disease that will kill. We need to review the way society treats addicts, not as criminals but as sick people in need of care. We need to look at the way our government funds rehabilitation. It is cheaper to rehabilitate an addict than to send them to prison, so criminalisation doesn’t even make economic sense. Not all of us know someone with the incredible talent that Amy had but we all know drunks and junkies and they all need help and the help is out there. All they have to do is pick up the phone and make the call. Or not. Either way, there will be a phone call."

Quite surprised I'm your go-to guy for "sensible".

Yeah, that sounds just like me. I'm never actually involved in on-going arguments, for a start.

Le

Grim...: If you stop and think about something, chances are he's good at it.

Thanks for that Gilly.

Looking back on my own life, my addictions could have killed me, and indeed very nearly did so. My survival in the end was down to my amazing family and a couple of very special, close friends, and most importantly in terms of my final rehabilitation, the love of my girlfriend who is now my wife.

I suppose reflecting on this thread and all that's been said the thing that vexes me the most is that some people just don't understand what addiction is, or at least, they're not prepared to believe, or accept, or even consider, that an addiction is a sickness, a burden, a fundamental mindfuck that drives you fucking insane, something that is not a choice and that the person in question would give anything just to be free of.

It's easy to say 'Oh just stop drinking/taking drugs/self-harming/gambling/whatever' but it absolutely isn't as easy as that.

I realise I'm disagreeing with myself from a few posts ago now, maybe on some level, you do have to have been there or have been close to someone who was for it to really make sense, and therefore for it to be impossible not to curl up a little bit inside when you see how Amy Winehouse finally succeeded in destroying herself, because ultimately, that's every addicts' destination.

Some of us just managed to get off the train before it got there.