Be Excellent To Each Other

Well TBH Doc I think if the other 'not that bothered' folks in this thread had expressed their feelings in such terms, no one would have really felt the need to take issue with their position.

Echoing the good Doctor on that one, GY. For all the discussion, I've almost no experience in this field, and could never do your job.

Hat's off to you.

Sorry if you found me rude and confrontational. I found your initial post to be repulsive, each to their own.

I certainly don't hold any bad feelings towards you.

Oh and for the record there are several reasons why this is an emotive subject for me which I won't go into apart from to say that I spent ten years working with addicts within the criminal justice system.

Oh, wait. That was the zutons!

Yep, I think the reason some people reacted so strongly was the way it was said. I'm by no means sitting in my house watching her videos and crying but when I heard the news and when I hear people talking about I think it's a shame and feel sad for her family. There is nothing wrong with people saying they don't really feel anything about it if that's how they feel but I can understand some posters taking issue with the way this was expressed earlier.

Relevant, but I'm not so sure about:The press angle I can see, but not the management. They don't make more money -- long term, anyway -- from her death than they would from a fruitful recording career, so even if we do go for the ultra-cynical interpretation they are still motivated to do anything they can to save her.

Fuck off, you jumped up little twerp.

Oh, well done. Really exercising those debatin' muscles this evening, I see. You've definitely cut me down to size there. I'll certainly think twice before posting here again and risking another blistering blast of witty-yet-withering put-downs.

Not convinced there's any need for that Cavey?

TBH I think DocG expressed the 'not bothered' position with more honesty and diplomacy than anyone else managed.

I still can't understand how anyone isn't upset about Amy Winehouse's life and her slow and terrible death (which was basically a lonely and painful suicide extended over a number of years), and as such Doc saying he doesn't 'really feel anything' just doesn't compute with me at all.

But at the same time fella, no need for outright abuse surely? TBH it debases your position and does you a disservice, especially in light of the wonderful post you made earlier in this thread that GovYard highlighted

Well, it doesn't take much, does it?

What the fuck do you know about who has, or has not 'walked the walk' as you put it? I know for a fact that a few of us here have seen a good deal more of life than what staring at a screen all our miserable, pointless, bitter little lives, or perhaps reading whatever Google throws up to our inane, misdirected enquiries. There's no 'debate' with someone like you - you're beyond intellectual redemption, pal.

Still, I thought my response to you was quite "humorous" - it's a subjective thing, after all, right? You little twat.

Sorry AE mate.

The little prick just annoys the crap out of me.

Quoted to guard against time totally being changed.

lol

The snidey comments at the end of his post were designed to provoke a reaction but I have to agree that your first post was a lot more constructive.

And you know I love you Cavey

Getting it back on track. Winehouse on Buzzcocks

From this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYlpHBLtL0
To this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6arITjLxA

Unfortunately the thread locking caused me to lose a long post defending myself against Cavey.

The gist was: based on the demographics of Beex, most of us are unlikely to have had very much experience dealing with fatal drug addictions. Certainly, I do not, and am happy to admit so. The exceptions -- people like GY or Nemmie or Mimi -- have viewpoints that are probably a little more deserving of attention, as they have firsthand knowledge of the issues. Whatever else Cavey read is his own business because it's not what I wrote.

Bill Bailey was saying how lovely she was on twitter yesterday.

Well actually he said this "Poor Amy. She was a great guest on Buzzcocks, funny + outrageous. And a great talent. What a terrible waste"

You're kind of missing the point Doc, it's not a case of whether the posters to this thread have personal experiences of fatal drug addictions or not, that's immaterial when it comes to the fundamental underlying human tragedy of Amy Winehouse's life and death, you don't need to have 'been there and done it or been close to it' to empthasise or sympathise with what happened, and it doesn't preclude caring about what happened either.

Certainly personal exposure to the myriad world of addictions may offer extra insight, GY's posts in particular have been very informative, but in a way they're outside the basic crux of what originally got folks backs up on this one, which is the whole concept of the spoilt little rich girl being a stupid cow who deserved to die and who it's impossible to give a fuck about.

It's entirely possible I'm being too subjective about this, as I mentioned in the fruit machine emulation thread, I was a drug and gambling addict alcoholic, and was for many years, and that's a way to live your life that exposes you to a lot of desperate people in desperate situations, so when I look at Amy Winehouse I see a terrible loss and waste of life that resonates with me in some way, and I absolutely cannot understand how someone can say much of what the 'don't care' camp have come out with in this thread - it's that vicious and dismissive attitude of 'fucking junkies deserve what they get', like anyone picks that as a fucking lifestyle choice or something.

I'm...... off to the pub.

Me too.

Everyone be nice in the meantime, and look through the square window before posting, and consider what Jesus would think about your posts.

There's a double JD + coke with my name on it not too far away

I disagree, unsurprisingly.

Broadly, if I may over-summarise (at risk of offending people), I think opinions across the thread seemed to vary between "she had every opportunity to kick the habit and still didn't, so I find it hard to feel sorry for her" and "addiction and self-destructive tendencies doesn't work like that". If all the people with firsthand experience of addiction are of the latter viewpoint (I don't know that they are, and I have no opinions on this myself), that's an important distinction.

It seems to me that one's ability to genuinely feel sorry for her (I don't mean in an intellectual sense, but in a deep-in-the-gut sense) is probably tied to how one thinks about addiction itself because that in turn defines if one thinks of Winehouse as a victim or a fool. The former worldview invites compassion, of course, and the latter less so.

In the absence of anyone here actually knowing her (and thus experiencing genuine grief), I think these preconceptions about how addictive personalities work -- and the tension between different people's beliefs -- are the dynamic that is driving the discussion. I could be wrong though. Do people agree?

Hard for me to answer that as I don't know how I would feel if I didn't have experience of addiction.

The way you have expressed the situation is fine with me. The reason I found this thread so offensive was due to the thread title and the way people expressed their feelings about the issue. It was totally unnecessary when talking about the premature death of another human being and although I can't be certain I am pretty sure I would feel the same whatever my life experience had been.

I'm actually quite horrified by the emotional porn associated with this woman's death. A person actually died. Also, a massive media machine marketing some music has created yet another casualty. Truth is, it kept her in the news. Fans may disagree, but I'm not convinced I'd even remember who she was by now if it wasn't for all of the bad stuff. Could those in charge done something about it if they really wanted to? Maybe.

Now the marketing machine can go into overdrive and release an out of context greatest hits package and then if the porn machine works effectively, crap outtakes of stuff the artist didn't want to release. Not only that, but a whole load of people will make a whole load of money from crap that has nothing to do with music because someone died.

Also, anyone who buys tabloid newspapers after the last month needs their head examining.

Also, also, the person who wished another poster dead for apparently 'not being compassionate enough' is ... well, you get the idea.

Am I missing something here? What snidey comments were there at the end of the post that provoked that reaction from Captain Caveman?

I'm just not all that fussed that she died, and I don't really see why that should make me lacking as a human being in some fundamental way. I was far more upset by the death of Prof. Richard Holmes a couple of months ago, but I fully accept that his passing would have been greeted by a chorus of shrugs and "who?" from most people. I genuinely don't see why I have to care or feel empathy for every celebrity death, needless or otherwise. Some who have touched, influenced or enriched my life, yes, but not everyone.

Considering lots of people no doubt look up to her in a role-model sense, I'm pleased she's finally setting an appropriate example.

Again this seems like a very reasonable way of stating your feelings on the matter. If others in this thread had done the same I would never have become involved.

Unfortunately they decided to be poisonous and pointlessly nasty.

Been waiting for you to say something like this. Nice of you not to let me down.

Quite surprised I'm your go-to guy for "sensible".

He who trolls last trolls longest. Or something.

Anyway, I was really sad about Amy's passing until I read this thread - so much comedy gold I couldn't help but feel a mite cheerier.

Quite the epic thread, it turns out.

I liked the bit where Cavey was fantastically rude to me.

I liked the bit where your lack of web skills made you lose your big post.

And I liked it when the mods wrote in blue. Your tax money at work! Maybe.

I didn't like any of it. You all need to go and put your heads in the fridge for a bit.

Remove any stinky cheeses first, natch.

I liked the bit where the world kept turning.

It was also because Safari crashed. Bonus Applefreud!

I liked the bit when hermione climbed out the lake. But was then disappointed that she didnt follow Harry and Rons lead.

You keep your slash fiction in its own thread, you deviant.

Thanks to ignore, this is the most offensive thing I've seen first hand in this thread, you deplorable wanker.

Yeah sorry, I was/am drunk and have had a lousy weekend. To be fair, you've done plenty to go out of your way to try and piss me off at seemingly near every opportunity of late, for whatever reason, but it's no excuse to behave like a drunken, abusive twat on my part, undermining much of what I've said, tried to articulate and actually meant.

So, I apologize.

Again Doc, I can't really take any issue with that, it's a reasonable point, reasonably stated - and you may indeed have largely explained the differences of opinion we're seeing on this thread.

All that said however, I think the folks who see her with both empathy and sympathy, and genuinely feel sorry for what happened, are in a better place as human beings.

http://www.mrpaparazzi.com/post/15782/R ... house.aspx
I think this sums it up nicely.

Thanks for that Gilly.



Looking back on my own life, my addictions could have killed me, and indeed very nearly did so. My survival in the end was down to my amazing family and a couple of very special, close friends, and most importantly in terms of my final rehabilitation, the love of my girlfriend who is now my wife.

I suppose reflecting on this thread and all that's been said the thing that vexes me the most is that some people just don't understand what addiction is, or at least, they're not prepared to believe, or accept, or even consider, that an addiction is a sickness, a burden, a fundamental mindfuck that drives you fucking insane, something that is not a choice and that the person in question would give anything just to be free of.

It's easy to say 'Oh just stop drinking/taking drugs/self-harming/gambling/whatever' but it absolutely isn't as easy as that.

I realise I'm disagreeing with myself from a few posts ago now, maybe on some level, you do have to have been there or have been close to someone who was for it to really make sense, and therefore for it to be impossible not to curl up a little bit inside when you see how Amy Winehouse finally succeeded in destroying herself, because ultimately, that's every addicts' destination.

Some of us just managed to get off the train before it got there.

Actually you are my go to guy for a final poke once an argument has fizzled out. You are a master of the art.

Yeah, that sounds just like me. I'm never actually involved in on-going arguments, for a start.

Le

Hmm actually now you mention it you are good at that part as well.

Grim...: If you stop and think about something, chances are he's good at it.

That's probably where I fall down, really. My only experience of drugs is friends who've started on pot through their teens then moved onto coke etc. and ruined their lives. So my only exposure is with those I class as idiotic rather than troubled, and it's difficult to draw any distinction when I don't know the person involved. That's definitely a failing on my part and no doubt influences how I feel on this one: I find it immensely difficult to not blame the person for the very first moment they turn to drugs, regardless of the outcome, rightly or wrongly.