Be Excellent To Each Other

Electric cars were on BBC Breakfast this morning.
In principle I quite like the idea, and if I had a house with a garage I might be interested in an electric car to do the usual pottering about, and keep a petrol car for long range stuff (and another one for fast hooligan stuff ) However, usual caveats apply, the cost for the car over the lifetime I will have it, needs to be at least in the same range as buying a Ford Fiesta or something equivalent, at the very least brand new, i'm not even talking about second hand! I'd be happy to pay a small premium, but at £25k for the car they were showing, (£30k without the government rebate) the prices are still at the ludicrous level.

The piece wasn't helped by having Quentin Wilson answering questions.
Typical answers:
"The car costs £1.24 in electricity to do 100 miles" Fair enough, sounds pretty good.
"It's pretty much silent" That sounds pretty good too!
Then we get the question, the batteries only last 5 years and need replacing don't they?
His response? "Car engines need replacing after 7 years anyway, so that's not an issue." WTF?

Great job on selling electric cars there Quentin, blatant lies always help

I think he was trying to hard to not be Clarkson.

Hey, that's my approach to life in general.

"Car engines need replacing after 7 years anyway".
Contentious, and I'm not sure those numbers are exactly right.

But an engine that's done 150k miles over 7 years might well no longer meet emissions regulations, which are due to be tightened again soon.
Certainly by 10 years it'll be getting a bit tired. And I did read somewhere that that the majority of cars are scrapped under 10 years old now.

The batteries only lasting 5 years? I'd expect a lot longer to be honest, what he actually means is that certain cars have a battery warranty of 5 years.

But yes, it would eventually need replacing. You (or the next owner) will have a choice of double the range or half the price by then! The rest of the drivetrain will last a million miles.

You're right, the sticker-shock is the main problem now. But I think they're at that level because it's been worked out that for a daily use of a certain mileage already does work out the same or cheaper than a similar sized ICE car over some period. For now it's only corporate purchasers willing to try it though, and they lease anyway.

Even first generation Insights appear to not be below £5k at the moment. Which is a shame, as I really liked the look of Kalmar's. And I don't have £5k.

Lithium ion batteries used in full EVs (not hybrids) are basically the same as for laptops, iPhones etc. We all know how laptop batteries start to lose the plot after only a year of daily use and are pretty much fooked after 2-3 years, right?

So it seems to me that, whereas a Nissan Leaf might have a range of 73 miles when you buy it, http://www.nissanleafreview.net/nissan-leaf-range with spanking new batteries, this is going to be markedly reduced in a short period of time. It won't be that the battery is totally knackered as such, merely wearing out but still within what will doubtless be claimed as within serviceable life? So if your commute is 70 miles, then, don't buy an EV. And if it's even less than that, the savings in fuel costs will be negligible anyway, in comparison to the huge premium you're paying for the cost of the car in the first place. Seriously, why anyone would spunk £25k on one of these things, instead of £15k on a nice, 60mpg diesel that doesn't need massively expensive batteries every few years and ten grand in change towards fuel, is totally beyond my comprehension.

9000 miles/annum = 27,000 miles after 3 years
Assume 60mpg combined cycle (my 2 litre TDI Golf now manages 55mpg real world and has 140PS, and isn't even the latest Blu Tech); this gives 450 gallons of diesel
Assume £5/gallon, this gives a total 3-year fuel cost of £2250, which isn't even a quarter of the £10k premium when buying an EV over a normal car (ignoring £5k govt subsidy on top of that - WHY am I the taxpayer being made to subsidise Japanese electric cars instead of building new schools/hospitals etc??).
And at the end of 3 years, the diesel car doesn't have a knackered battery costing thousands to replace, it has unlimited range and isn't going to bin out on me in the middle of nowhere, and this example in any case ignores the cost of electricity also, which will not be zero, obv. Etc.

Alternatively, blow the whole £25k on a brand new BMW model 320ed that does 70mpg combined cycle, 109g/km CO2 and in considerable luxury and style, not to mention infinitely better performance, road holding, handling, driving pleasure etc. In short then, EVs suck balls IMO; maybe this'll change when they come up with an affordable, much more durable, higher charge density battery.

As for Quentin Wilson's remark that engines need replacing after 7 years? LOL, what a belmer. The average annual mileage is something like 9k/annum, so that's only 63k miles - diesel engines are barely even fully run in at that mileage and usually good for 150k, sometimes much, more more. (The VAG independent around here frequently sees diesel Passats etc. with 250k+, and they've been taxi'd at that). Anyway, I seriously doubt that an EV with a range of 70-odd miles between charges (at best), each charge lasting hours at at time and all the faff that goes with it, will ever be called upon to even do more than 9k miles/annum - it's hardly as though they're going to be hammering up and down motorways, since they can't do this for any length of time anyway.

Usage patterns have a lot to do with battery wear, so it's not really valid to directly compare them without experiments. There're a lot of interesting developments heading out of the lab too - nano-formed anodes/cathodes and so on.

Right, I've got a thing from the DVLA telling me my SORNd car has to be insured.
What?

What it says, unless it is on private land or somesuch.

It has to be on private land to be SORNd. Now they're saying it has to be insured. All the time.

Tell them it's not a car anymore, it's an art installation.

Hang on, their website doesn't agree:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Ow ... M&CRE=Furl

I will have another look at the letter when I get home. If I have to insure all my cars I'm going be angry, to say the least. One of them is in two different counties!

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/t ... -insurance

SORN and off road is fine, it seems. Taxed but uniinsured isn't.

Sure mate, like I said, *if* and when there becomes a decent, durable, practicable and affordable battery tech available, and that's a big "if" (i.e. second and third gen EVs), it could be a different matter? (But even then there will also be much more efficient diesel hybrid engines in future, as compared to now, as well. I see Citroen have been busy with fully 75mpg combined cycle and 99g CO2/km production car imminent, unlimited range and decent performance).

Indeed, that can't be right that you have to insure it, I tried to get my mx5 insured even though it was SORN'ed and it was a right hassle as most insurance places won't touch SORN'ed cars.

Well, I put 15-20k a year on mine, and the time taken up charging is approximately zero, same as for my phone - it happens overnight. Far less faff than refuelling the gasser every week, I can assure you

That's the sort of convenience I would be interested in, were it not for 2 points. I don't have anywhere to charge it overnight in my current place, and electric cars are just too expensive in comparison to a petrol or diesel. I'll fix point one at some point, but I can't do anything about point 2...

Seriously? Fair play on both counts then mate; that's some serious mileage and I thought it took hours and hours for a single, full charge - shows how much I know.
"Cavey in talking absolute bollocks shocker - again"

I think the point is it can take hours because he's asleep anyway.

Yep
Although the Leaf etc can also be recharged in 20 minutes or so from a service station charger, if you do make longer trips in it.

20 minutes... Just long enough for a toilet break, coffee and a Ginsters.

COINCIDENCE???

All at the same time?

You'll struggle to manage a toilet break after a Ginsters.

Au contraire in my experience, chap? After ingestion of Ginsters - surely the last, desperate resort of even motorway comestibles, this motley selection not exactly being embarrassed by riches in the first place (the best before dates 3 months hence, on allegedly meat-based stuff, are surely a harbinger of the impending colonic doom) - copious toilet breaks are thereafter required every 20 minutes.

Mind you, Ranchers microwave kebabs just about take that coveted 1st spot, in my opinion. Man alive, a scabby dog in-a-bun(tm) is surely preferable. (Which frankly, is probably a direct equivalent thereof).

That's why you go first.

I think I once managed to break a toilet after a Ginsters, if that's any help.

I quite like the idea of the Renault Twizy (I think that's the one) Z.E.

Electric car that's essentially a glorified moped, but with four wheels, pedals and steering wheel.

2 seats. 62 mile range.

3 hour charge time, and you lease the batteries from Renault at about £40 a month.

The vehicle costs about £7,000, but on a lease plan or whatever that'd be, what? £150 a month? So £190 a month with negligible running costs?

Practically all the drawbacks of a moped only twenty times more expensive, brilliant.

If it doesn't make that FUCKING HORRIBLE NOISE*, then it's worth it, and someone should legislate immediately.

* Also smell.

My thoughts exactly, to be honest. £200/month for this, and you don't even own the thing? Renault have totally lost the plot; they should've stuck to making big-arsed, very mediocre, Golf-sized proper cars, and dreary people carriers for those eagerly awaiting the grave.
(Plus, you'd look a right dick in it, I reckon. Heaven help you if you crash, too; dogmeat).

W-What? The evocative whiff of 2-stroke oil smoke laying in the air on a warm, still, summer evening is, for me, one of the finest smells on the planet, with echoes of a fast, dangerous, misspent (but thoroughly enjoyed) youth.

You would not have liked my old RD-400; she sounded like the angriest giant hornet in the most reverberant tin can imaginable, what with her de-baffled, twin microns. Used to set off house alarms, that old bike, purely from acoustic incidence effects. Scary as hell and so much fun to ride; wheelied like absolute crazy and with such consummate ease, even though she could actually only just crack the ton in reality. It seemed so fast! Hopeless brakes (naturally) but a great handler; much better than the KH Kawa triples of the same era, albeit these were even quicker and yet more wheelie-friendly; total hooligans.

I *love* 'strokers, most especially the big, old, lairy ones of yore. Now, a KH750 really was something to behold, and hear - worth an absolute fortune now.

We talked about the Twizy a few pages back. It's a hell lot better proposition than a scooter IMO, and you get the benefits of an electric without the huge price tag. Mainly though, it looks fun!

I cannot adequately explain how much I detest the noise made by 125cc and smaller two stroke engines.

I mean, the smell is easy - it's horrible being stuck behind one, and should be enough to ban them outright for vehicular purposes.

But the noise! It scrapes its fingernails down the blackboard of my soul, and its fork across the dinner plate of my heart.

I can see these small almost silent electric vehicles causing loads more accidents with pedestrians.

Yeah, I seem to remember we did that one a while back, too.
It's a serious concern, I believe.

I'm with you on that one; it's probably a hoot to drive.

Tyres against tarmac makes plenty of noise.

The Megan was a great mid-sized car.

Not to the elderly, or hipsters like you with your £100 bloody headphones.

We've been here before, when the government threatened to force them to have beepers. Thing is, on the A roads, they're as noisy as any other car. In the city, they are eerily silent - and that's where the people are.

That's what horns are for.

I'll show you what a horn is for.

Hmm, reading that, I just got a fleeting mental image of Zarz and Myp doing it in a small electric vehicle. In silence.
... Pass the mind-bleach.

I've never had a smoker, but I DO really, really want, more than a Speed Triple or a 916, an RS125, or an RS250.

My thoughts on people who step into roads without looking, regardless of silent cars or not?

Fuck em.

Not literally, more in the metaphorical sense.

Unless they are fit, n'atch.

Yeah, those Aprillias are awesome mate, esp. the RS250. I'm too big/fat for one now, obv., but man, I'd have loved one of these when I was a young blade. Makes my old RD look a bit sick.

MUST TRY HARDER!

Agree it's a media-scare more than a real issue though.

I managed like 6 hours or so, new personal record!

As I grew up in Cornwall, the idea of looking to cross a road is still somewhat alien to me. it's really odd things like that. As a result, I ALWAYS use the push button crossings if they are there, just to make doubly sure. People drive well fast up country.