ltia wrote:
Also, it's not a kids show, anyway. If Dr Who is a kids show, so is Dancing on Ice or some shit.
You're comparing apples with oranges there
Doctor Who is a children's show, just as the Harry Potter films and books are for children, just as Treasure Island is a children's book.
I feel no shame enjoying those as an adult, but I take them for what they are. Craster almost described my thoughts exactly, except I take a slightly higher view. If you are going to analyse something, such as Doctor Who, then you have to analyse it in the context in which it is presented. To start picking up on plot flaws or anything else wrong in the production is pretty fruitless when you consider the target audience.
superdupergill wrote:
I watched it with my nephew who immediatly said that he didn't think Rory was gone because the crack is supposed to remove every bit of you from the universe and the engagement ring was in the tardis which was a Rory bit of universe. So I think that kids really do pay a lot of attention and get annoyed if things don't make sense. I thought it was alright. Fairly enjoyed it.
The engagement ring was a Rory bit of the universe, but what about other things, like his house or whatever - and what if he'd bought that outfit Amy was wearing for her - in which case *HNNNNNNNNNNNNNHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGHHHH*
sorry....
Erm, just tell your nephew that yes the ring is a bit of Rory related stuff in the universe, but it was already not in the universe, it was in the Tardis.
GovernmentYard wrote:
Erm, just tell your nephew that yes the ring is a bit of Rory related stuff in the universe, but it was already not in the universe, it was in the Tardis.
To be fair, you've been telling yourself that about Adric's Gold star for mathematical excellence since 1982.
ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!
Pundabaya wrote:
Mr Dave wrote:
Am I the only one who actually likes Rory?
I find that quite sad, really.
I find that quite sad, really.
I like Rory.
I also liked Rory.
I thought that one was a bit better.
Quote:
I feel no shame enjoying those as an adult, but I take them for what they are. Craster almost described my thoughts exactly, except I take a slightly higher view. If you are going to analyse something, such as Doctor Who, then you have to analyse it in the context in which it is presented. To start picking up on plot flaws or anything else wrong in the production is pretty fruitless when you consider the target audience.
Exactly. I do consider the target audience. I'd go as far as to guess that it's way more intelligent than the target audience for Eastenders, for example. By your argument, we should all be picking apart the latest episode of Emmerdale and ignoring things like Dr Who because it's 'for kids'. I'm sure everyone would agree that would be mad. Even fans of Emmerdale, I would imagine.
Kids are not idiots. Just because something is aimed at kids (or actually, in this case not just kids...) doesn't make critical discourse invalid.
It's a family show - A teenager trying to grow a whispy moustache will avoid it because their little brother watches it, but it doesn't mean mum, dad and dodgy geek uncle don't watch it as well. Dodgy geek uncle, possibly dad and (if you're lucky like me to be married to an awesome geek) mum will go as far as to pick it to pieces/rave about how moving/interesting/sexy it was. They've been doing that for nearly 50 years! In fact, the kids do too, as I've found out with my own.
The fact that it's subject to such criticism for so long is a testament to how well it stands up and how worthwhile it is. When it's crap, the fans remember who wrote it. When the BBC stick cartoons of Graham Norton over important bits, they get thousands of complaints because Dr Who is worthwhile and the next show on a Saturday night isn't.
So there! The Dr Who defense!
[Edit] - speeling and grammerr
ltia has it right.
ltia wrote:
By your argument, we should all be picking apart the latest episode of Emmerdale and ignoring things like Dr Who because it's 'for kids'. I'm sure everyone would agree that would be mad. Even fans of Emmerdale, I would imagine.
Wait a minute - that's precisely what I haven't been arguing!
ltia wrote:
Kids are not idiots. Just because something is aimed at kids (or actually, in this case not just kids...) doesn't make critical discourse invalid.
And nobody is claiming that case. It's all about the context.
I thought the point you were making was that it's a kids show, so we shouldn't pick it apart?
If not, then I... oh.
If not, then I... oh.
ltia wrote:
I thought the point you were making was that it's a kids show, so we shouldn't pick it apart?
If not, then I... oh.
If not, then I... oh.
That'll be because I was a bit drunk when I wrote this:
Pundabaya wrote:
To start picking up on plot flaws or anything else wrong in the production is pretty fruitless when you consider the target audience.
and failed to expand on it
Another successful EoaE internet discussion
Just watched it. Bit slow to start with, but slowly built to a brilliant finale. I wonder if the narration was significant or not.
As for the main debate: I liked Rory from the start, and felt his bumbling manner above ground showed promise of greater Doctory things.
I suppose I should feel guilty for laughing at the celery reference.
As for the main debate: I liked Rory from the start, and felt his bumbling manner above ground showed promise of greater Doctory things.
I suppose I should feel guilty for laughing at the celery reference.
So, basically, the consensus is "Some flashes of good writing, but most episodes do not hang together well at all, but that's OK as it's aimed at kids and as such we shouldn't judge it so harshly".
Kern wrote:
I suppose I should feel guilty for laughing at the celery reference.
Perhaps we'll see it on his costume at some time
My verdict:
Well I enjoyed it, even the first of the two parts. Admittedly this was more from a production aspect than the writing, that was largely serviceable. Odd how the Doctor's writing always seems a cut above in ho-hum scripts with Matt Smith. Is this down to the awesomeness of his delivery? Anyway I really dug the feel of the remote Welsh mining-drill and the underground civilisation. I felt they really sold the impression of one below the other. I also loved the Silurian look, despite it verging on camp at the time. Some neat little nu-Who finishes (OMG! All the aggressive characters are female!) and it zipped along pretty well. It's not one for the ages, but it hung together nicely and didn't have any fecking annoying plot holes. Nor did it have an 'EARTH MUST BE SAVED!' plot. It may have looked like having one, but frankly the poor ol' Homo Reptilia would have been doomed from the start. So this was about saving a small group of characters, and of this I approve. There was a curious fatality about it though, with the Doctor coming across as just too glibly idealistic for once with me being left with the feeling that the talks, even if they succeeded, could only really fail on any application. But that's probably just me.
My only beef with it was the actions of the mum and the humans upstairs. I don't believe mothers work that way. Clearly the best approach for everyone would be to keep a hostage, despite the taunting, as long as hope was there. I don't think that element was handled terribly well, although the idea behind it all was good.
Rory's death was sad. I think they could have pulled it off a bit better, it didn't look as much a sacrifice as it clearly was. But the body being claimed was a beautiful touch, and led to some great drama. I imagine a lot of kids will be blubbing.
So a solid three and a half out of five from me. Nothing special, but a solid fun adventure that had me glued.
Also puts me in mind of something. Everyone assumes that the crack is a life-consuming time-erasing void. I think it's a life boat. I think it's something the Doctor has created in the future to save people - a pocket in time - destroying the Tardis to do so. It's removing them from the time-line and keeping them safe in some sort of limbo. The Doctor doesn't forget because he created it in the first place, but as he created it in his future (which he can't visit) he has no idea what's causing it. Rory is being kept safe there, as are the marines. The crack has primarily been intended to save lives through defeating the angels - who I assume are kept safe and neutralised there somehow - and in saving Rory and others he cares for, and perhaps even Amy Pond later on. Only he hasn't built it too good so it keeps popping up here and there - but only in his own regeneration time-line.
Of course, this still leaves the mystery as to why the baddies all have a good chuckle about it.
'Fairy tale' being Moffatt's plan for the series, I imagine everyone will be resurrected by having to clap hard, with the kids at home joining in. Bless.
Well I enjoyed it, even the first of the two parts. Admittedly this was more from a production aspect than the writing, that was largely serviceable. Odd how the Doctor's writing always seems a cut above in ho-hum scripts with Matt Smith. Is this down to the awesomeness of his delivery? Anyway I really dug the feel of the remote Welsh mining-drill and the underground civilisation. I felt they really sold the impression of one below the other. I also loved the Silurian look, despite it verging on camp at the time. Some neat little nu-Who finishes (OMG! All the aggressive characters are female!) and it zipped along pretty well. It's not one for the ages, but it hung together nicely and didn't have any fecking annoying plot holes. Nor did it have an 'EARTH MUST BE SAVED!' plot. It may have looked like having one, but frankly the poor ol' Homo Reptilia would have been doomed from the start. So this was about saving a small group of characters, and of this I approve. There was a curious fatality about it though, with the Doctor coming across as just too glibly idealistic for once with me being left with the feeling that the talks, even if they succeeded, could only really fail on any application. But that's probably just me.
My only beef with it was the actions of the mum and the humans upstairs. I don't believe mothers work that way. Clearly the best approach for everyone would be to keep a hostage, despite the taunting, as long as hope was there. I don't think that element was handled terribly well, although the idea behind it all was good.
Rory's death was sad. I think they could have pulled it off a bit better, it didn't look as much a sacrifice as it clearly was. But the body being claimed was a beautiful touch, and led to some great drama. I imagine a lot of kids will be blubbing.
So a solid three and a half out of five from me. Nothing special, but a solid fun adventure that had me glued.
Also puts me in mind of something. Everyone assumes that the crack is a life-consuming time-erasing void. I think it's a life boat. I think it's something the Doctor has created in the future to save people - a pocket in time - destroying the Tardis to do so. It's removing them from the time-line and keeping them safe in some sort of limbo. The Doctor doesn't forget because he created it in the first place, but as he created it in his future (which he can't visit) he has no idea what's causing it. Rory is being kept safe there, as are the marines. The crack has primarily been intended to save lives through defeating the angels - who I assume are kept safe and neutralised there somehow - and in saving Rory and others he cares for, and perhaps even Amy Pond later on. Only he hasn't built it too good so it keeps popping up here and there - but only in his own regeneration time-line.
Of course, this still leaves the mystery as to why the baddies all have a good chuckle about it.
'Fairy tale' being Moffatt's plan for the series, I imagine everyone will be resurrected by having to clap hard, with the kids at home joining in. Bless.
NervousPete wrote:
My only beef with it was the actions of the mum and the humans upstairs. I don't believe mothers work that way. Clearly the best approach for everyone would be to keep a hostage, despite the taunting, as long as hope was there. I don't think that element was handled terribly well, although the idea behind it all was good.
You don't understand as you don't have children.
MaliA wrote:
NervousPete wrote:
My only beef with it was the actions of the mum and the humans upstairs. I don't believe mothers work that way. Clearly the best approach for everyone would be to keep a hostage, despite the taunting, as long as hope was there. I don't think that element was handled terribly well, although the idea behind it all was good.
You don't understand as you don't have children.
Rrrrgh!
I shall go out and grow some right now, AND THEN YOU'LL SEE!!
MaliA wrote:
You don't understand as you don't have children.
Is there something you aren't telling us?
In it's defense, the mother clearly didn't intend to kill the Silurian. Tasers are generally regarded as non-lethal by the population at large (because they are, except in some rare cases) and I wouldn't have expected her to consider whether it would be lethal to an alien creature.
I know I am behind the rest of you, but I just watched the Amy's Choice episode and it disturbed me a bit more than any other episode I have ever seen.
I found it a bit upsetting.
I found it a bit upsetting.
Quote:
My only beef with it was the actions of the mum and the humans upstairs. I don't believe mothers work that way. Clearly the best approach for everyone would be to keep a hostage, despite the taunting, as long as hope was there. I don't think that element was handled terribly well, although the idea behind it all was good.
I liked that actually - she seemed to me to be quite a realistic character. Not so much as a mother, but as a middle aged idiot-woman.
Mimi wrote:
I know I am behind the rest of you, but I just watched the Amy's Choice episode and it disturbed me a bit more than any other episode I have ever seen.
I found it a bit upsetting.
I found it a bit upsetting.
Try getting behind the sofa.
GazChap wrote:
In it's defense, the mother clearly didn't intend to kill the Silurian. Tasers are generally regarded as non-lethal by the population at large (because they are, except in some rare cases) and I wouldn't have expected her to consider whether it would be lethal to an alien creature.
Not alien.
/pedant
//edit - new page, repeat link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/thead ... fthedaleks
GovernmentYard wrote:
GazChap wrote:
In it's defense, the mother clearly didn't intend to kill the Silurian. Tasers are generally regarded as non-lethal by the population at large (because they are, except in some rare cases) and I wouldn't have expected her to consider whether it would be lethal to an alien creature.
Not alien.
/pedant
Ahem.
"Alien means belonging to a different country, race, or group, usually one you do not like or are frightened of. "
Definitely alien.
You know damn well what sense you meant it in :/
I don't care what tense you meant it in, the fact is that the Silurian was an Alien as far as the woman was concerned.
/superpedant!
/superpedant!
Yeah, sorry, but I didn't mean alien in the "extra-terrestrial" sense.
Do you like your toast done on one side?
Details on Richard Curtis's story with a rather ominous last paragraph
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainmen ... 223837.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainmen ... 223837.stm
Quote:
Four Weddings And A Funeral writer Richard Curtis was told to redraft his Doctor Who episode because the Time Lord talked too much, he has revealed.
Curtis, 51, who wrote classic TV series Blackadder, said he was also told by show producers the beginning was "too slow".
"It was nice being pushed around in the right direction and having a format," he said.
Curtis' episode, which features Vincent van Gogh, will be shown this Saturday.
First draft
Speaking after a screening of the episode at BFI Southbank in London, Curtis said he had been given "all sorts of instructions" about the Doctor and his relationship with assistant Amy Pond.
"I remember I was told, when I first handed in my first draft, the doctor talked too much and that I should go back and watch some of the episodes and see that, actually, he was rather efficient in the way that he talked."
Despite initial resistance, Curtis said that, after a read through with Matt Smith, who plays the Doctor, and his co-star Karen Gillan, he "suddenly realised they were right and it was bad - and then I re-wrote it".
In Saturday's episode, Van Gogh is shown taking a shine to Gillan's character.
"I was told very much that Amy's in a peculiar position with reference to the state of her heart," Curtis said.
Also speaking after the screening, Gillan said viewers would need tissues for the finale of the series later this year.
She said it would be "a big climax for Amy and her story that's been building throughout the series".
Filming the scenes had "required a lot of kind of concentration and emotion", she added.
Curtis, 51, who wrote classic TV series Blackadder, said he was also told by show producers the beginning was "too slow".
"It was nice being pushed around in the right direction and having a format," he said.
Curtis' episode, which features Vincent van Gogh, will be shown this Saturday.
First draft
Speaking after a screening of the episode at BFI Southbank in London, Curtis said he had been given "all sorts of instructions" about the Doctor and his relationship with assistant Amy Pond.
"I remember I was told, when I first handed in my first draft, the doctor talked too much and that I should go back and watch some of the episodes and see that, actually, he was rather efficient in the way that he talked."
Despite initial resistance, Curtis said that, after a read through with Matt Smith, who plays the Doctor, and his co-star Karen Gillan, he "suddenly realised they were right and it was bad - and then I re-wrote it".
In Saturday's episode, Van Gogh is shown taking a shine to Gillan's character.
"I was told very much that Amy's in a peculiar position with reference to the state of her heart," Curtis said.
Also speaking after the screening, Gillan said viewers would need tissues for the finale of the series later this year.
She said it would be "a big climax for Amy and her story that's been building throughout the series".
Filming the scenes had "required a lot of kind of concentration and emotion", she added.
GovernmentYard wrote:
Mimi wrote:
I know I am behind the rest of you, but I just watched the Amy's Choice episode and it disturbed me a bit more than any other episode I have ever seen.
I found it a bit upsetting.
I found it a bit upsetting.
Try getting behind the sofa.
I've caught up on the entire series, now. I like this Dr Who. I like Amy, though suddenly when she goes 'stroppy' or shouts she's just on that edge where she can get annoying. Then my mind goes back to that Catherine Tate woman, and her wooden-expressioned predecessor and I think, actually, Amy is lovely.
I like this guy playing him now as so many of his actions ARE like Tennants, but maybe a bit amplified. I wasn't keen on Christopher Ecclestone as he seemed to gurn all of the time. I liked Sylvester McCoy, too.
GovernmentYard wrote:
Tried.
Damn, that's shockingly poor. So far, I've managed to fall through the floor, and have my head disappear aside from my eyes. Controls are rubbish too, and the movement and voices are all wrong, stealth is crap and bugged, and performance is terribly jerky.
So yeah - not great.
GovernmentYard wrote:
I've played it for about half hour, packed it in when it came to the fourth Metal Gear Solid style stealth section.
Couldn't they come up with a game where the Doctor doesn't get killed?
Not sure what I thought of that... There was a couple of things I didn't agree with.
Bluecup wrote:
GovernmentYard wrote:
I've played it for about half hour, packed it in when it came to the fourth Metal Gear Solid style stealth section.
Couldn't they come up with a game where the Doctor doesn't get killed?
Yeah, its a bit pants...
Still better than Left 4 Dead!
Good Episode I enjoyed it, Corden next week
The game is definitely very far from perfect, but it kept me entertained for an hour and, well, it is free.
The episode... it was alright. Not exactly heavy on plot and I'm never very keen on things that are very obviously trying to interfere with my tear ducts, but it was okay. Next week's ep looks more interesting.
The episode... it was alright. Not exactly heavy on plot and I'm never very keen on things that are very obviously trying to interfere with my tear ducts, but it was okay. Next week's ep looks more interesting.
The game is definitely very far from perfect, but it kept me entertained for an hour and, well, it is free.
The episode... it was alright. Not exactly heavy on plot and I'm never very keen on things that are very obviously trying to interfere with my tear ducts, but it was okay. Next week's ep looks more interesting.
The episode... it was alright. Not exactly heavy on plot and I'm never very keen on things that are very obviously trying to interfere with my tear ducts, but it was okay. Next week's ep looks more interesting.
I've watched 17 mintues of the latest ep so far and I think it's bloody awful. Having Bill Nighy in something never helps of course. Being by Richard Curtis also explains a lot about why it's crap. Maybe it gets better but this is worse than the Daleks episode so far.
Yeah. I kinda figured quite early on that Richard Curtis isn't exactly famous for writing gripping Sci-Fi.
Whilst not great, it was easily the best thing on TV on a Saturday night.
Whilst not great, it was easily the best thing on TV on a Saturday night.
Is the game playable by keyboard/mouse? or is it a you will need a pc game controller type affair?
Keyboard and mouse. Or if you want no control it is possible to "play" with just the mouse.
Bluecup wrote:
Keyboard and mouse. Or if you want no control it is possible to "play" with just the mouse.
Perfect I'll download it tomorrow for the kids to play & I'll have a myself - see how the team at sumo did after sonic racing.
A turgid and slow central part of the episode. And could have done with being a 30 minute episode. And didn't really need the monster of the week.
But, my the rest of the episode was wonderful. Taking Gogh to see his paintings was so bloody moving. Even with the soft rock.
And whilst ITV is piddling around with Britain's Got Talent, the beeb has a time travelling english gentleman battling space aliens one week then spending the next week rattling on about why art is wonderful.
I mean what other mainstream, family or science fiction show has the guts to do that?
It will be interesting to compare the huge amount of praise the episode got on twitter to what the Doctor Who Forum people think.
But, my the rest of the episode was wonderful. Taking Gogh to see his paintings was so bloody moving. Even with the soft rock.
And whilst ITV is piddling around with Britain's Got Talent, the beeb has a time travelling english gentleman battling space aliens one week then spending the next week rattling on about why art is wonderful.
I mean what other mainstream, family or science fiction show has the guts to do that?
It will be interesting to compare the huge amount of praise the episode got on twitter to what the Doctor Who Forum people think.
Dr Lave wrote:
And didn't really need the monster of the week.
That's also my main criticism of the episode. It seemed to suffer from the expectation of fitting the monster-of-the-week template which New Who has fallen into.
<sob>
That was.... gorgeous. I'l take my weekly monster if it gets a generation of children up to speed on Van Gogh.
The subtlety of the Doctor's treatment of post-Rory Amy benefited from a bit of the Curtis factor, too. This is Nine/Rose quality stuff, really very yes indeed.
That was.... gorgeous. I'l take my weekly monster if it gets a generation of children up to speed on Van Gogh.
The subtlety of the Doctor's treatment of post-Rory Amy benefited from a bit of the Curtis factor, too. This is Nine/Rose quality stuff, really very yes indeed.
Ho hum, I do wish they'd stop with the "Doctor meets a famous historical person and nearly gives them a blow job" stories.
Dickens, Shakespeare, Queen Victoria, Churchill, Van Gogh, Agatha Christie, and coming up next series... The Doctor goes back to the 1960s, meets Rolf Harris, declares him the best musician who ever lived, has to tie down alien kangaroos with him, explaining the song, finally gives him a quick blow job and darts off.
Dickens, Shakespeare, Queen Victoria, Churchill, Van Gogh, Agatha Christie, and coming up next series... The Doctor goes back to the 1960s, meets Rolf Harris, declares him the best musician who ever lived, has to tie down alien kangaroos with him, explaining the song, finally gives him a quick blow job and darts off.
I agree with Mr Dave, it is getting a little old hat, however, that was by far the best of that genre. Also agree the monster was apparently superfluous. It was very emotional, and very well done. Really enjoyed it.
I loved it. Very, very, beautifully shot, and extremely moving. Perhaps the monster would have worked better if it was just van Gogh's mental demon rather than a real one, but that can be overlooked.
In the end, I liked it. I agree that bits of it seemed to drag, but overall it was excellent. Someone said earlier in this thread that they don't seem to do second drafts - it feels like that here (and the Venice one, the Dalek one as well as the silurian one being pointlessly padded into 2 episodes). Maybe getting famous writers makes it difficult to get them to finish them properly? This one should have been 24 minutes.
The Dr fights a giant invisible space chicken with Vincent Van Gough as the only person who can see it. What? It was also about why art is important and that the artists have to suffer. Very different to some of the other stuff this season - felt more like a Paul McGann story to me, which is a good thing.
Although it's only a kids show, so none of this matters....
The Dr fights a giant invisible space chicken with Vincent Van Gough as the only person who can see it. What? It was also about why art is important and that the artists have to suffer. Very different to some of the other stuff this season - felt more like a Paul McGann story to me, which is a good thing.
Although it's only a kids show, so none of this matters....
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