Be Excellent To Each Other

i did say i did not know enough about usb polling to say whether you were right or not. I did not duck the question. I asked what made a gaming keyboard better other than, macro keys or backlit or it looks different. My stance is there is no difference between a good keyboard and a gaming keyboard. When i did ask again you posted an ebay pic of speakers!

Which is fine. I copied stuff from a review article. That doesn't mean I said it and it's exactly what is going through my head.

I have. Refresh rates in games are almost always 60Hz or less. Halve the response time, you get 120Hz, and anything more than that is not really needed in a keyboard. Mice are different, on account of being an analogue medium. I wouldn't know the point at which the increase becomes meaningless.

Probably the main problem you had is linking to a review that was full of bollocks.

Rubbish. A standard keyboard used by, say, a professional coder, or a transcript secretary, is going to take way more abuse than a gaming keyboard. Short of browsing the Internet, playing games is about the least demanding thing a keyboard can do.
And if you're referring to the force the keys are struck with, you clearly haven't seen my mother type. She makes the German kid look positively gentle. Swear to God, if she gets up to speed, hitting space makes the fucking thing bounce off the desk.

what keyboard and mice do you have Grim... ?

I don't care if I am right Kovacs. THAT is what you seem to be missing. I don't give a fuck what's right and wrong because I have made a decision. Does that make sense? So constantly going on and on and on about it is annoying. What matters to me, as I have now pointed out time and time again is that I wanted the keyboard but wasn't prepared to pay £50 just to retire my Saitek which I also paid £50 for to the underside of my bed and thus would not have ordered it. But someone ordered it for me. Probably because he knew I wanted it and being sensible and level headed is sometimes no fun? Fuck knows. It's even more sweet that I can stick the Saitek under the bed now and not constantly think how I have done £100 in 6 months on keyboards.

Now what is irritating however is you telling me I am wrong and then saying you don't know enough about usb polling. Does that make sense? Look. If you want to spend your day sitting on the internet telling people they are wrong at least know why.



Why you even care is beyond me. You said there were no differences between a gaming keyboard and a regular one. I pointed out that there were differences. Obvious ones. You tell me that they make no difference. Sorry, just really fucking confusing is all. Then you tell me that you don't know anything about usb polling but it doesn't make a difference. Even more confusing

Then, after all that you say "you are wrong and I am right". I don't fucking care. The point you seem to have drastically missed. You constantly seem to do this too. Follow me around telling me I am wrong and you are right. Why? seriously don't you have anything better to fucking do?

Yes, you did. Fair enough. I then went on to say that it didn't really matter. Interesting, but won't change my excitement or happiness. And that's fine because it's not like you then continually told me I was wrong to feel that way, wrong for eating the diet I eat and wrong for even waking up in the fucking morning.

Maybe the review is bollocks? I don't know. It doesn't matter any way because review or not it was already done.

I do have to say a switch to disable the windows key would be pretty useful.

But nothing will separate me from my lovely bendy microsoft keyboard.

I don't care mate. You come on here spouting rubbish, then get pissy when you are corrected.

Also jc i said you were wrong about the keyboard not the mouse. Keyboard!!

Since when was I spouting rubbish? If anything telling someone they are wrong without being able to explain why is spouting rubbish. Even worse when you basically turn around and say "yes I can see a difference between the numbers 125 and 1000 yet can't tell you why they make no difference because you are wrong".

That's a fucking brave way to act. As for being corrected? Far from it. Doc, for example, has corrected me on numerous occasion with scientific fact. If you really think telling someone they are wrong without having a jar of glue as to why then good luck to you.

Here, an example of how you may be correct.

I have stated that gaming keyboards are usually bigger and more hard wearing than say a cheapo £10 supermarket jobby.

If in a year or so's time the TACTX breaks? you will have a point. Until then you don't know.

And you have explained why with how many actual facts? Not Kovacs facts, where the word wrong works for one and all, but real technical data on the contrary of what these 'gaming keyboard manufacturers' state.

Curiously, the review seems to say that the keyboard operates at 125Hz - about the rate I said would be right, and certainly not overkill in order to get some big numbers for marketing.



It is, but you didn't write it.
What would be interesting is if he then went back to his old setup and played tomb raider/pinball again and saw whether he started dying more, as to me the improvement sounds like it could well just be him getting better at the game.

i never said you were wrong about the mouse. But the claims about the keyboard were. All i said was there is no difference between a decent keyboard and a gaming keyboard in how they work. Both are hard wearing. The gaming one has a few more gimmicks such as macro keys and back lights. But a keyboard is a keyboard it is down to personal preference.

But there are differences. Something you continue to ignore and refute. The gimmicks? well, the word wouldn't exist if people didn't like them. So hey, horses for courses.

what are the differences?

Fair enough I just read the entire thing again and the keyboard does indeed operate at 125hz. I also read how it felt more responsive and etc, but they don't quite know why, the tomb raider thing and so on. Which is fair enough. It's not like they're lying really just making opinions.



Possibly.

May aswell type this here instead of making yet another post.

Kovacs. You say that macros, extra buttons and so on are all gimmicks. Again I will ask if you have ever used either, or played a game where you needed to? (flight sim, WOW and so on). It's all well and good to have them and so on and then say "they're gimmicks" but I have always found it remarkable how people say things are gimmicks without owning one. Let's use the Iphone for example. Fuck me, I have seen thousands of people say it's all a gimmick, serves no real purpose, waste of money. Funny thing is when they get one within a month they come out with crackers like "couldn't live without it now !".

yes i have played wow on a normal keyboard.

My favourite keyboard is my Oxygen 8 because it's name reminds me of Jarre, it fits in a rucksack & has a load of knobs on. It's shite for games mind.

They have extra buttons, macros, are more hard wearing (please refute that with fact and not the word wrong) light in the dark so you can see what you're doing when you're gaming (because I have never known someone to type up their accounts or a letter in the dark, but Doom 3 really needed to be played in the dark).

EDIT. Some have very high polling rates. Something that apparently doesn't make much difference (and I can understand why). But have them none the less.

They are also bigger, bigger wrist wrests in most cases and so on.

All of which are very large differences. I mean seriously, do they (any of the ones I linked to) look like something you see sitting in an office?

A friend of mine once had this keyboard specifically designed for WOW. It was the same sort of basis as a normal keyboard but came with a whacky overlay that had names for all the buttons (specific to WOW) on them. He said it made learning all the controls much much easier, as he had a visual image of what button did what without having to read a manual for hours and hours and remember how to navigate everything. So, proper back lit keys makes a difference when gaming in the dark. I already gave examples to this earlier using MW2. For example during training it will say "PRESS 5 to blah blah blah". Desperately stabbing for the 5 key with your right hand whilst your left sits on the WASD keys is a pain. I glanced down, saw the number 5 lit in red and pressed it immediately.

Which, when it serves a purpose flies in the face of gimmicks.

Those lights can also be programmed to completely change colour and flash when you get a notification. Again, could be considered a gimmick but it's serving a purpose.

Right. Just seen your post about WOW on a normal keyboard. And yes, it's entirely possible and yes the above $60 could be considered a waste of money. But then if it makes your life easier and you're prepared to pay for it who cares?

See also waste disposal units (because it's only a little bit harder to throw it in the bin) and dish washers because our hands are just as good.

If you don't see the point in gaming keyboards? that's fine. I do. I lose count of how many times I have said that yes, it does matter to me no matter how fucking daft it may seem to you. I don't need a cutlery service or plates because a mess tin and spoon suffices rather well. Learned that in army cadets. However, doesn't mean I would sit and tell everyone how wrong they are for using plates and knives and forks.

As for gimmick? well I just put it through a thesaurus and this is what I found.



Well, that appeal worked for me and I believe in it.

I'd say by far and away the most important factor in a keyboard is comfort. The [url=http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043]keyboard[/quote] I have is. And you pay for it (If memory serves, I got it for £45, although it is now cheaper - £30 odd from play.).

The AW keyboard is also supposed to be comfortable, which immediately makes it worth more than your standard office keyboard. If The Coffey gets it and finds it isn't, well, I'd be surprised, but it's not like he's made a loss on it.

how can you prove it is more hardwearing that my office keyboard. Which i have had for three years and use for 8 hours a day? It also has a wrist rest built on (it is also a Dell). The back light, well i just put the light on dimmed low. extra keys can be usefull but not always necessary as games can be played on a normal keyboard.

i agree keyboards have to be comfy, my office one is because of the built in wrist rest. My home one is a low profile one so negates the need of a rest. I admit gaming keyboards are petty compared to non gaming ones. But that is it really.

See Dave? Your bendy Microsoft one is a waste of money too!

i have a microsoft one too. It is great when i work from home. Would be my main pc one, but the wife does not like it.

Not in the slightest. The only keyboards which have come close in comfort terms were earlier iterations of the same idea.

I can't prove it. Just like you can't disprove it. As I say, only time can tell on that part. I brought a Saitek and it does tend to feel more solid than the old Alienware one (not a gaming keyboard, just a fancy coloured microsoft basic jobber). It also has this silky rubber stuff on the wrist wrest that keeps my hands in place for gaming (because I tend to lift my wrists a little when typing and don't when gaming) and so on. My gaming mouse (DPI etc aside) also has this rubbery coating on and I fucking love it. Normal desktop use? well it doesn't really do much. Load a game and start to sweat and etc and it comes into it's own. I cannot tell you how many times I used to slip on my old microsoft mouse and end up staring skyward in Half life whilst being shot to death.

So aye, a game can be played on any keyboard and mouse, but this keyboard in particular (the Saitek) is better than the last one I had that wasn't deemed a gaming keyboard. Also, I suffer with sweaty hands and fingers. The Saitek has a lovely flat satin finish on the keys that I can keep a grip on. The last microsoft one? Well, the keys were shiny plastic. A real fucking pain if you had any moisture on your hands at all. See also the N64 stick. My thumb used to slip off that bitch so much I ended up putting one of those foam 'in ear' headphone cover things on it, which improved it greatly. I also used to use a pad for my PC (a gaming pad) that had a fan in it. Nyko airflow or something. Was fucking great. After prolonged sessions on Mario 64 my sweaty hands would cause me to slip and fall (really annoying on tik tok clock for example) so I would have to continually pause the game and go and wash my hands.

Nemmie reakons I have acidic sweat because my mouse logo has worn off and he could well be right. So that silly little 1" fan in that pad that all my mates thought was a gimmick (even though they liked it) to me was excellent.

So aye, this Saitek gaming keyboard, IMO and experience is far better for gaming on than the boggy standard microsoft that's now sitting under my bed. I had that about oo, two years? and the space bar wobbles like a bitch, keys are worn to a shine and so on. Wear showed very quickly on that. The Saitek seems to be doing well, even though apparently they're not built that well (see Nemmies points before).

So hey, I can clearly and honestly say that just having some satin rubber on the wrest and keys makes a big difference to me. It's also far more comfortable over prolonged periods.



But again you have never used one. I'm not having a go dude, and I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but my Iphone philosophy is correct. I bet you have loads of friends who said how stupid they are but when they got one did a massive Uturn? I know a bloody good few people who have.

So sure, £50 even for a bit of rubber (ooer) and some lights (which are bloody handy) is more than enough for me. I am a casual part time lamer gamer as I have admitted on several occasions (partly why I dont see the need for a dedicated gaming console, because when not gaming I would never use it) but even over the periods I play games for (was up til 6am playing HL ep1 because I forgot I hadnt completed it.. Dont worry about MW2 I have had to calm on that because I was getting unhealthily obsessed with it, dreaming about it and everything) it makes a world of difference to me. And, it's not like that £50 sits stagnant for most of the time because I'm even using it now when not gaming and it's still more comfy than my old microsoft (although as I admitted earlier I don't like the smaller keys but Im slowly getting there).

Because all of the looks and gimmicky stuff aside they were actually darn good boards under all that.

Interestingly enough, I might have an opportunity very soon to get a decent gaming Keyboard and/or Mouse for very cheap (SideWinder X8 Mouse/X6 Keyboard). I've normally only used "Normal" (ranging from dirt cheap to decent) keyboards, and found them all to be fine for gaming.

I was expecting the main different for a keyboard would be that the keys are more suited to game style pressing (in terms of resistance), the keys would hold up better to lots of gaming (not so much lots of wear, but concentrated wear on WASD, for example), and they would annoyingly light up to kill atmosphere when playing an atmospheric game with the lights off. I never thought the difference would ever be enough to justify the full price (for me), but since I can get one for very cheap, I might as well.

I also know exactly how they will be marketed. Lots of numbers that mean very little, lots of madeup buzzwords on the box (as well as the odd occasional relevant spec).

It's mainly a case of not stressing the joints. As I've noted when talking about the PS3 pad, putting hands into uncomfortable positions causes me a fair amount of pain. Which is why I much prefer the gamecube and xbox pads over the sony ones. Similar story here, the keyboards are designed such that your hands sit where they want to naturally.

I remember when I first saw one, I was highly sceptical, but then when my brother lent me his pc with one for a week, when I had to return it, I had to get a similar keyboard to replace it. It's been a similar story with anyone who's used my pc for any lengthy period of time. And advances in the field mean the one I got a couple of years ago are far better than the one I originally got in about 98.

And given how liable I could be to RSI, between gaming, typing and guitaring, even doubling the money needed it would still be well worth it.

I have a Logitech G15 keyboard and although I dont think it makes a major difference in most games, it is really lovely to use and has a great feel to it. Its got 54 macro keys but tbh, I dont really use these as much as I should do and the LCD screen is pretty cool as it allows you to see additional info such as performance info or media info at any time. I usually use it for things like Team Speak and Ventrillo as it lets you see who has joined/disconnected/speaking etc without having to ctrl tab or having a 2nd monitor running.

The backlit keys are a must* for me, but admittedly this isnt specific to gaming keyboards as there are a lot keyboards nowadays which have backlighting. The media controls and USB (albeit not 2.0) sockets in the keyboard are also quite useful.

Like Dave said, disabling the windows key is useful and does prevent them embarrassing times of minimising to desktop in the middle of a fire fight.

I've had the keyboard for over 4 years now and its been flawless, yes it may have cost a bit more than a "normal" keyboard, but its been money well spent in my opinion.

I think JC's argument is more quality keyboards v cheap keyboards than gaming v normal...but again, that is just my opinion.

* about 35 secs in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f48lVKjTQBE&feature=fvsr

Yup. It's for this reason I don't have a PSP. I played Burnout on it for about ten minutes, and my left hand was ready to fall off.

Now see I did not get on with the PS2 pad at all ever. I would get really awful sharp pains shooting up between my hand bones and would have to shake my hand vigourously whilst trying not to cry. Seriously, I am talking complete and utter agony here.

Rewinding back to the launch of the natural keyboard well, it was met with much the same greeting as gaming keyboards in this thread. Cries of "90 fucking pounds for a keyboard !!!" and "fuck me, it has keys, it looks stupid, it's a gimmick ETC" and so on. And you know? I was at an age then (early 20s) when I still bashed the bollocks out of any product I did not own. I made it clear to my pal who got one it was fucking stupid and he would never catch me using one. I feel fucking daft now because I ended up getting one dirty cheap and fucking loved it

Sure, they were not for everyone's taste and fuck me they were very different, but I can almost understand why they cost £90. I mean, when you take something so simple and basic (your average qwerty keyboard) turn the fucker on it's head and come out with something so revolutionary yet seemingly stupid it costs money. And then you find that a lot of people bashing on them (mentally, not physically) are only doing so because they cannot afford them.

So over the years I have slowed myself down on that front, and if something looks interesting to me but I either don't want it because IMO it looks stupid or simply can't afford it I don't slag it off.

It's easy to see that the Alienware TACTX keyboard looks vastly different to anything else I have seen (the frontal part looks almost Razer though, and I heard rumours Razer actually R&D'd it for Alienware which I can believe as I know their mouse is Logitech with lights in) now because of that (even making something look different) you have the costs of R&D, then production which if it is different need to be 100% paid for and cannot borrow from existing production lines. And when you hop on something like that it's going to cost, so I think when all is said and done £50 is a fucking bargain. Especially considering that Alienware were charging something crazy like £70 odd for the same lighting in their laptop keyboards



Hahaha. Well I clearly remember being not only skeptical but incredibly vocal about it. And I felt really fucking daft all those years later when I sat there and said "fuck me this is good !"

You know you could be spot on there. I pointed out earlier that a 'cheap' gaming keyboard runs at least £40. I mean, surely when they design them they think "well it needs to be solid and reliable", not just "fuckers only need to be able to type on it so let's keep costs at a minimum".

If they employed Razer (and I would be fucking amazed if they didn't, seeing as their keyboards are award winning the world over and Razer have been around for years) then that would also cost lots of money.

BTW. As utterly stupid as this sounds.. One of the things I am really excited about is the alien style font used on the keys. I know I know, it does fuck all, but trust me after twenty or so years looking at the same old key font it's going to make a bloody nice change

Just thought I would mention. Everyone said that the analogue stick was a gimmick too. Yet, every fucker from that point on copied it and refined it. I can't remember now what clever cunt added the rubber coating (Sony? on the Ps2 dual shock?) but the Xbox 1 had it too.

And, as silly and stupid as it seems thinking about it (cos hey, only a bit of rubber right?) it's actually fucking great. It made the sticks feel slightly heavier and less pingy than the N64 and greatly improved grip and comfort. Well, IMO of course but every bastard does it now so there must be something to it.

It's all of those things that have been refined and added to/taken away that gives us what we have today. The utterly incredible 360 pad.

This sounds familiar. The PS3 pad with it's triggers is even worse, believe it or not. Why sony have not updated their 15 year old shitty design remains a complete mystery to me.



Also because they weren't aware of what it did better. After all, the standard keyboard was seemingly good enough.



I can't really say anything overly meaningful without trying one, but given I don't need to look at a keyboard while typing, a backlight isn't much of a selling point for me, and for me, I can't imagine there being much to tempt me away from my current keyboard.

But granted, the cost is there for a reason.

but i was not comparing a 'gaming' keyboard to a cheap one. You might have noticed I said a decent keyboard not a cheap one. That is why i said gimmicks were the only difference. Natural keyboards and other specialist keyboards are not gimmicks, it is part of my job to test such keyboards, as one of my guys does ans assessments.

Didn't they try to change the design for the PS3, but people complained? Or is that me misremembering things?

They did, but the design they opted for was diabolical. It wasn't well researched.

I have amazingly small hands. I know I got them from my mother as my brother has hands like bunches of bloody bananas. I think it was the constant forcing my hands to bend inwards to reach the sticks and keep my pointer/trigger finger up near the shoulder buttons that used to cause all that pain. I loved the N64 pad because it put everything perfectly into a hand on each part. The Dpad was wank, though. Serious afterthought tbh.

Why I can't touch type on every key escapes me. It could be that because I have spent years gaming with the same few keys I cannot break into new habits? I mean, 5 was a new one for me. Far Cry 2 was the first I noticed to rely on it (for the GPS thing) and I constantly had to fucking look at it to make sure I was pressing 5.

I know that FPS use them for weapons, but I started playing FPS when Half Life came along and you did it with the middle scroll wheel (hey, another supposed gimmick at the time lol).

And the most classic 'it's a gimmick' line? Sony speaking of the Wii motion controller

Infact, come to think of it even the sublime 360 pad is 100% made up of all of those stupid gimmicks that came along.

This thread makes me glad I didn't get made a mod

You'd have nuked this thread from orbit pages ago, yes.

So has anyone played AI War? I've dabbled, but it seems like it'd be far more fun with more people.

Er, a Saitek, err (looks on the bottom) "PC Gamer's Keyboard" (that's inventive) and a Logitech Mx518.


Surely nearly every keyboard fits in a rucksack?

QUICK ! add it to your sig

You can't buy them any more, it seems, which is a shame. This is the second one I've had, but the first one didn't break through usage, shall we say.

[edit]I lie! Here's one! http://www.bmcdigital.co.uk/catalog/vie ... g-keyboard

Yes, but not every rucksack can fit a keyboard in

Bastards could have kept that bigger spacebar when they designed mine ! Me huge whacking great spacebars. I tend to thumbslap them like that really cool dude in Level 42 used to slap his guitar.

That is a gripe with this Saitek, the spacebar is woefully thin.

*looks at his keyboard wondering what all these funny piano like keys out to the sides do*

Ah, multimedia keys. Something I can safely say I have never used.