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'Alternative Medicine' Stuff
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6691
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Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 16:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Oh and here is a little dirt on the wonderful Klee Irwin.

Quote:
1. This is an action for monetary and equitable relief for more than 200,000 Americans who
have (1) purchased Defendants’ product(s) known as Dual Action Cleanse, Total Body Purifier,
and/or Colon Cleanse Formula, or (2) whose credit or debit cards Defendants unauthorizedly
charged or debited for unordered merchandise of any kind, or both, especially by means of the
Infomercial in the Video Exhibits and transcribed in Exhs. 1 and 2.


http://www.casewatch.org/civil/irwin/cl ... plaint.pdf

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 16:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

It's a good job alternative medicine practitioners and companies aren't into suing people for libel.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 16:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

* MODS-

Could we please split out the 'hi fi' stuff into a new thread if that's OK please? Many thanks. :)

Cavey

Author:  kalmar [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 16:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

I shall do that right now.

Actually there's an existing thread we can dig up.

Here!

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 16:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It's a good job alternative medicine practitioners and companies aren't into suing people for libel.


Quote:
–noun
1.
Law.
a.
defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b.
the act or crime of publishing it.
c.
a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2.
anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.


How is it libel if it is true ?

You'll find many websites that exist to get the truth out about these products.

http://www.infomercialwatch.org/reports ... tion.shtml

Has been around since the launch of the product. I can't remember if that specific one was put up by an actual doctor but I know for a fact that a site of the ilk existed. The doctor in question (a real qualified one) sat down and went through the ingredients one by one explaining exactly what they were, what they did and the effects. By the time he was done he concluded that it wasn't really safe for any one, let alone those with digestive problems.

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Infact that is the website.

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

JohnCoffey wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It's a good job alternative medicine practitioners and companies aren't into suing people for libel.


Quote:
–noun
1.
Law.
a.
defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b.
the act or crime of publishing it.
c.
a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2.
anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.


How is it libel if it is true ?


That hasn't stopped the BCA or NMT.

Also, bear in mind it's not just about whether any particular facts are true (e.g. "the ingredient doesn't work"), it's also about how you present them and the words you surround them with and the implications that can then be drawn (e.g. anything to do with motive, dishonesty or them knowing the stuff doesn't work), which can be fucking hard to prove to be true if you have to defend yourself.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

kalmar wrote:
I shall do that right now.


Many thanks mate. :)

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Captain Caveman wrote:
kalmar wrote:
I shall do that right now.


Many thanks mate. :)

wrong thread! ;)

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Well TBH that website is pretty much what I have said. Only difference of course is that unlike that website I have worked in the actual company. I have read (and been forced to read, in verbatim) all of their 'scripts' and am no longer under NDA.

FWIW that website list most if not all of the legal wranglings Irwin has been through. Cellular research was the name he came up with after Irwin Naturals and a couple of others were forced to cease trading.

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:06 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

JohnCoffey wrote:
Well TBH that website is pretty much what I have said. Only difference of course is that unlike that website I have worked in the actual company. I have read (and been forced to read, in verbatim) all of their 'scripts' and am no longer under NDA.


So? What's that got to do with you implying e.g. that they're dishonest? Do you have copies of anything which proves that they're dishonest?

They may well be a bunch of shysters, but given how litigation happy shysters can be you'd be well advised to be a bit more careful about what you publish on the internet. Fine if it's your website, but as someone pointed out last time, you're putting Grim... at risk too.

You could happily have told that story without the name of the company, ffs.

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Is he doing it again?
>:(

Author:  kalmar [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Lawyers: advise?

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

kalmar wrote:
Lawyers: advise?

OBJECTION! I just did, dude.

Author:  Cras [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Captain Caveman wrote:
* MODS-

Could we please split out the 'hi fi' stuff into a new thread if that's OK please? Many thanks. :)

Cavey


I think the hifi stuff was an attempt at drawing a parallel - Doc was quoting a USB cable that was touted to give you better sound quality of MP3s copied over using it.

So, something that has no basis in science, but it promoted by sources (what hifi) as being a great product, and users will say that "it works for them".

So the same thing as homeopathy, basically.

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

http://www.whnt.com/news/takingaction/w ... ory?page=1

Author:  kalmar [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Craster wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
* MODS-

Could we please split out the 'hi fi' stuff into a new thread if that's OK please? Many thanks. :)

Cavey


I think the hifi stuff was an attempt at drawing a parallel - Doc was quoting a USB cable that was touted to give you better sound quality of MP3s copied over using it.

So, something that has no basis in science, but it promoted by sources (what hifi) as being a great product, and users will say that "it works for them".

So the same thing as homeopathy, basically.


Indeed, but it did quickly veer off into specifics of cables (possibly my fault). Doc's point is still clear.

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

JohnCoffey wrote:
http://www.whnt.com/news/takingaction/whnt-colon-cleansing-problem,0,6498924.story?page=1

In what way does that address what I've said?

It may well be a fact that the products can cause problems, but you appear to be making accusations of dishonesty against the owner, which is nigh on impossible to prove. Are you really this dense, or do you just not read my posts?

Author:  MaliA [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Lawyers: advise?

OBJECTION! I just did, dude.


I concur with my friend.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Craster wrote:
I think the hifi stuff was an attempt at drawing a parallel - Doc was quoting a USB cable that was touted to give you better sound quality of MP3s copied over using it.

So, something that has no basis in science, but it promoted by sources (what hifi) as being a great product, and users will say that "it works for them".

So the same thing as homeopathy, basically.
Exactly that, yes.

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

If you can hear the difference, even if there is none, can you not argue that it's money well spent?

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Grim... wrote:
If you can hear the difference, even if there is none, can you not argue that it's money well spent?

Yes, you could argue that.

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It may well be a fact that the products can cause problems, but you appear to be making accusations of dishonesty against the owner, which is nigh on impossible to prove. Are you really this dense, or do you just not read my posts?


I wouldn't say it's impossible to prove. He has a huge track record of being dishonest.

http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/pro ... omni.shtml

Any way. I didn't post to cause an argument about legal wranglings, hence why I probably seem 'dense'.

If my post can cause any problems for this forum and its users (other than me, I'm quite prepared to stand by what I have posted) then please by all means remove it.

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

JohnCoffey wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
It may well be a fact that the products can cause problems, but you appear to be making accusations of dishonesty against the owner, which is nigh on impossible to prove. Are you really this dense, or do you just not read my posts?


I wouldn't say it's impossible to prove. He has a huge track record of being dishonest.

http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/pro ... omni.shtml


Good lord, man, do you read your OWN posts? Nothing there is about dishonesty, but mislabelling and selling drugs which need to be licensed.

Quote:
If my post can cause any problems for this forum and its users (other than me, I'm quite prepared to stand by what I have posted) then please by all means remove it.

Try not to do it yet again in a week's time though.

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Good lord, man, do you read your OWN posts? Nothing there is about dishonesty, but mislabelling and selling drugs which need to be licensed.


So mislabelling drugs is not dishonest?

Author:  MrChris [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

JohnCoffey wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Good lord, man, do you read your OWN posts? Nothing there is about dishonesty, but mislabelling and selling drugs which need to be licensed.


So mislabelling drugs is not dishonest?

Not necessarily, no, because it can be done through utter fucking ignorance or incompetence or just a technical breach. It's also a case of not putting things on there which need to be on there.

I've already referred to the BCA case, which was about just this sort of thing - while we may think that chiorpracters thinking they can cure colic with spinal manipulations is dishonestly selling bunkum treatments, the court of first instance disagreed, basically because the chiropracters genuinely believe in their treatments. i.e. the defendent would have to prove that they didn't.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Grim... wrote:
If you can hear the difference, even if there is none, can you not argue that it's money well spent?

Yes, you could argue that.


Well, I like to think that with my background, and given that I actually took the trouble to 'audition' various cables at home over weeks at a time with an overriding objective of spending as little as possible, there *was* a quantifiable difference in performance that was worth paying for, otherwise I wouldn't have paid it. Obviously. (And if I didn't, I'd be an idiot, wouldn't I? Must admit, the implication of Gaywood's question, as now explained to me by Craster, is now clear to me, whereas I was just answering it in earnest/good faith originally. ;) )

Author:  Grim... [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

You must have been like "WTF is Gaywood on about?" :D

Author:  JohnCoffey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Here's another one. Yet this time I will leave Wikipedia to do all of the explaining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau

Very interesting stuff though.

Quote:
Kevin Mark Trudeau (born February 6, 1963) is an American author, convicted felon, radio personality and infomercial salesman, best known for promoting alternative medicine. A number of his television infomercials and several of his books, including Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, allege that both the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the pharmaceutical industry value profit more highly than treatments or cures.

Author:  Cavey [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 17:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Grim... wrote:
You must have been like "WTF is Gaywood on about?" :D


Yup, I was mate lol. :)
I should have realised, however. ;)

Author:  sinister agent [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 20:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

LaceSensor wrote:
Re: Homeopathy, I cant understand why anyone would sincerely beleive that the less of something you give someone the better.


I believe the claim goes that the water "remembers" what was mixed in with it, and takes on the qualities of that chemical. Because of magic.

It has never been proven, and every single time it has ever been tested, there has been no significant difference between water and magic homeopathy space juice.

If the homeopaths were right, then all the water on the planet would have the same effect on the body as every single chemical on earth, and all life on the planet would have melted in a chemical-induced mess aeons ago. It is demonstrably bollocks, to the extent that there is one doctor in the US (I think - I forget the guy's name) who has publicly maintained for many years a promise that he will personally give 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove that homeopathy works. In fact I believe he doubled the prize a few years ago.


And Chris - stop being mean to JC :p

Author:  Plissken [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 20:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

sinister agent wrote:
If the homeopaths were right, then all the water on the planet would have the same effect on the body as every single chemical on earth, and all life on the planet would have melted in a chemical-induced mess aeons ago. It is demonstrably bollocks, to the extent that there is one doctor in the US (I think - I forget the guy's name) who has publicly maintained for many years a promise that he will personally give 1 million dollars to anyone who can prove that homeopathy works. In fact I believe he doubled the prize a few years ago.


James Randi? Though his is a Paranormal test, but he debunks homeopathy as well.

Author:  Mr Russell [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 20:53 ]
Post subject: 

There is a bloody brilliant image that Lave (?) posted here one time which is like a photo panel strip about homeopathy pills having the water evaporated from them, so that even if you 100% accept the fact that water 'remembers', there is no water left anyway.

Someone should know what I'm on about and post it. Unless I already missed it.

Author:  Cras [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 20:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

The pills remember that they used to have water in, duhh.

Author:  Mr Russell [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 21:00 ]
Post subject: 

Craster wrote:
The pills remember that they used to have water in, duhh.


Now, now. There's nothing in THE SCIENCE about sugar also having a memory.

Author:  Mr Dave [ Wed Jan 12, 2011 22:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Grim... wrote:
If you can hear the difference, even if there is none, can you not argue that it's money well spent?

Do you like your shiny super boffo HDMI cables?

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

:(

Author:  Mr Russell [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Found it!

http://i.imgur.com/jKenI.jpg

Author:  Cras [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 13:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

See, told you. Memory of sugar.

Author:  kalmar [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 14:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Craster wrote:
Memory of sugar.


Good name for a blog.

Author:  devilman [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 15:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Memory of sugar.


Good name for a blog.


... for Chinny.

Author:  BikNorton [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 16:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

If damn near every bubble of that didn't have a terrible typo in it, I'd find it far more entertaining. As it is, 2/10.

Author:  Zardoz [ Thu Jan 13, 2011 16:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

devilman wrote:
kalmar wrote:
Craster wrote:
Memory of sugar.


Good name for a blog.


... for Chinny.

664 Bananas

Author:  Grim... [ Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Topical:
http://www.sadanduseless.com/image.php?n=1098

Author:  Grim... [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 14:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

So, there's a petition on Change.org that says
Quote:
Jimmy Wales, Founder of Wikipedia: Create and enforce new policies that allow for true scientific discourse about holistic approaches to healing.


Jimmy himself replied.
Quote:
No, you have to be kidding me. Every single person who signed this petition needs to go back to check their premises and think harder about what it means to be honest, factual, truthful.
Wikipedia's policies around this kind of thing are exactly spot-on and correct. If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals - that is to say, if you can produce evidence through replicable scientific experiments, then Wikipedia will cover it appropriately.
What we won't do is pretend that the work of lunatic charlatans is the equivalent of "true scientific discourse". It isn't.


http://www.change.org/petitions/jimmy-w ... nses/11054

Author:  Cavey [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 20:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Wow, I'd entirely forgotten about this thread. :)

Author:  ApplePieOfDestiny [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

All my favourite topics are back today. I truly am in the magic kingdom.

Author:  Mr Russell [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

And reminded me of this excellent image I posted further up the thread. It's ace.
http://i.imgur.com/jKenI.jpg

Author:  Curiosity [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
All my favourite topics are back today. I truly am in the magic kingdom.


*goes off to find the Amy Winehouse thread*

Author:  Mr Russell [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Curiosity wrote:
ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
All my favourite topics are back today. I truly am in the magic kingdom.


*goes off to find the Amy Winehouse thread*

You'll need to search for 'junkie bitch'

Author:  Kern [ Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Alternative Medicine' Stuff

Grim... wrote:
So, there's a petition on Change.org that says
Quote:
Jimmy Wales, Founder of Wikipedia: Create and enforce new policies that allow for true scientific discourse about holistic approaches to healing.


Jimmy himself replied.

...

http://www.change.org/petitions/jimmy-w ... nses/11054


That is brilliant!

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