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Not unless there was an external enclosure that can take 3 sata drives all at once. I'm not keen on increasing my cable amount

Why do you need 3 drives?

"TBH" I'd say ditch it and get one of those tiny things that Chinny got - you know, with the atom processor like a netbook. Put the drives in an external enclosure.

Mini ITX isn't going to fit your case I don't think? Also, you probably want the smaller sized PSU to go with it - a "normal" sized 400/500W rated thing might be wasting more power than it's supplying if you only want 20W.

kalmar wrote:

A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks?

JohnCoffey wrote:

kalmar wrote:

A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks?

No, PSUs let out about 85% of what they take in from the mains. The rest goes into heat, that's why there's a fan. Big ones waste more power even doing nothing, like a car with a big engine.

Sounds reasonable.

To solve your (hopefully temporary) too-many-drives problem, you could bung a USB-to-sata converter onto one drive, but connect the power to the main PSU (i.e. keep it inside the case, I assume there's room).
Cheaper and should take a bit less juice than an external enclosure with separate supply.

JohnCoffey wrote:

A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks?

No, PSUs let out about 85% of what they take in from the mains. The rest goes into heat, that's why there's a fan. Big ones waste more power even doing nothing, like a car with a big engine.

I may have over-simplified above, but I assume you agree with that?

It's almost impossible to get a computer PSU down to 20% loaded, I think; unless you set out to do it by plugging a 1kW uber-PSU into a mini-ITX board with no HDDs or something.

I could be wrong on this though. I'm operating more from received wisdom than direct experience.

Ah, but since I have an Xbox, 'stuff' isn't very demanding. I also have a laptop and a netbook, so I guess I'm just ascared of Linux

I'm sure the everyday stuff will be ok, but I'm a tinkerer by nature and downtime affects the WAF

That's more like it! Good work.

That's the main reason I bought an iMac in the first place, after tiresome messing around with horrible NASs and what have you. Hard to beat one machine that can do everything server-y *and* is your actual computer.

Doesn't have to be a Mac either, any non-stupid laptop would work, though whether it would last as well as this iMac, being switched on for 6 years, I'm not so sure..

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:23 ]
Post subject:	Low Power Computing
Hello. I have a PC at home running 24/7 as a file server, torrent box and whatever else I need. It stores all of my music, movies, TV shows, pictures, drivers, documents, iso, world domination plans and biscuit recipes. The problem is... I think I'm killing the planet. The machine is basically a hold-over from my pre-xbox days, when PC gaming meant more than Cafe World on Facebook and is over powered for the task. It was recently rebuilt from the stuff that JC sold me and consists of: Core2Duo E4500 underclocked to 2Ghz 3GB of DDR2 Triple SLI motherboard (with Alienware BIOS ) Nvidia 7600GT 256MB Graphics Card 80GB System Drive 500GB Drive for storage 1TB Drive for Videos and other media It's running Win7 Enterprise 64bit and works fine. I was concerned about the amount of electricity that I'm burning through. What are my options here? Do they involve a new Mobo? I could really use onboard GFX here I guess. Would a low power CPU make a difference?

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:30 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
"TBH" I'd say ditch it and get one of those tiny things that Chinny got - you know, with the atom processor like a netbook. Put the drives in an external enclosure.

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Not unless there was an external enclosure that can take 3 sata drives all at once. I'm not keen on increasing my cable amount

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:35 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Do you need all 3 Satas running? If you got a small machine it would have a built in drive for the system, wouldn't it? Keep the 80 as a backup. Make sure drive spin-down works! PS I wouldn't normally say "buy a new thing" to solve the problem but I do think you'll be struggling to get the power consumption down with a normal PC motherboard and PSU. A bit like starting with an 80s volvo estate and trying to get 100MPG, it's not going to be easy. Feel free to prove me wrong though!

Author:	chinnyhill10 [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:39 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
DavPaz wrote: Not unless there was an external enclosure that can take 3 sata drives all at once. I'm not keen on increasing my cable amount Why do you need 3 drives? Just get a big external that has a SATA connection. Sounds like an Acer Revo is what you need like wot I have. It's tiny, runs from a laptop supply and goes to sleep very efficiently. I must get around to doing the review I promised.

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Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
chinnyhill10 wrote: Why do you need 3 drives? I need 3 drives, because I have 3 drives and can't really afford a 2TB or bigger to replace them. The Revo + a huge external would probably be ideal, but I ain't got the money for that. sigh Nose to the grindstone then

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Just a thought, you possibly want two setups here - keep the 80 + 500 in your current machine and only fire it up when you are actually using it. Do a media server / torrent / ALLEY machine that will be always on as well, and connect the 1TB to that. Then you don't need anything as fancy as a Revo, even an old netbook with tiny screen (can be had for $cheap) might do as a proof of concept. There are other small / fanless systems from a few years ago that would work as well, and won't cost much second hand. Even a mac mini if you fancy playing about with one.

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 15:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Dave, chances are you can underclock the GPU too. My friend did so with this 4870 yesterday and reakons its running super cool.

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: "TBH" I'd say ditch it and get one of those tiny things that Chinny got - you know, with the atom processor like a netbook. Put the drives in an external enclosure. Low powered cheapness FTW. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Dell-Vostro-A100_ ... 27af1ee479

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:13 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
That's not a bad shout.

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:18 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
How many SATA's does it have can anyone see?

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
I think it's two Dave. the board is basically a Foxconn ITX board. So tbh? 500gb on one channel and DVD drive on the other. I suppose you could even either remove the DVD once Windees is installed or use external drives. EDIT. Sorry, 1tb. Didnt see you had one that big !! ooer !

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
2 channels? http://www.deliran.net/refrence/Vostro_ ... arison.htm (Again, if you keep your existing system as well there's no need to cram 3 drives into it).

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Intel-D410PT-Fanl ... 548wt_1166 It gets better. Since I have a case that works fine, how about just the mobo?

Author:	DavPaz [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Thanks for the offer Kalmar, and the general advice, all you other peeps. I reckon a new Atom Mobo is the way to go. I'll move my 1TB HDD to the Media Center (as it's storing videos, that's where it's needed anyway) and pick up a basic mobo from ebay. In response to Grim...'s point about now needing a PC, you may be right, but I like the flexibility of a Windows install and the idea that I still use it for everyday stuff as well if needed

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Yah 2. Look at the A100 on the left side. The A180 has 4. EDIT. Yeah that's pretty much the same thinger Dave tbh. Saves you almost £40 and you don't get a case and psu you don't need.

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Mini ITX isn't going to fit your case I don't think? Also, you probably want the smaller sized PSU to go with it - a "normal" sized 400/500W rated thing might be wasting more power than it's supplying if you only want 20W. But otherwise yes, a fanless mini-ITX is the right place to start, keep looking and you'll probably find a built system for less.

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:28 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
ITX will fit in an ATX case, albeit with a lot of space left over. You might be right about the PSU though

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:29 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: Mini ITX isn't going to fit your case I don't think? Also, you probably want the smaller sized PSU to go with it - a "normal" sized 400/500W rated thing might be wasting more power than it's supplying if you only want 20W. A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks? Mini ITX should fit his case? Dunno. The back plane looks pretty standard, I suppose its just whether the posts would line up. If not then I suppose it would have to be the Dell really. Time you add a PSU and case itll go well over £100 I would have thought?

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
JohnCoffey wrote: kalmar wrote: Mini ITX isn't going to fit your case I don't think? Also, you probably want the smaller sized PSU to go with it - a "normal" sized 400/500W rated thing might be wasting more power than it's supplying if you only want 20W. A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks? No, PSUs let out about 85% of what they take in from the mains. The rest goes into heat, that's why there's a fan. Big ones waste more power even doing nothing, like a car with a big engine.

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:34 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: JohnCoffey wrote: kalmar wrote: Mini ITX isn't going to fit your case I don't think? Also, you probably want the smaller sized PSU to go with it - a "normal" sized 400/500W rated thing might be wasting more power than it's supplying if you only want 20W. A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks? No, PSUs let out about 85% of what they take in from the mains. The rest goes into heat, that's why there's a fan. Big ones waste more power even doing nothing, like a car with a big engine. Ah OK I see. Yeah Dell thinger FTW then I guess. They're probably open to offers too.

Author:	DavPaz [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 16:36 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
I reckon I could find an older 200W PSU in one of my many cases. So basically, I just need the mobo and possibly an external case for the 500GB drive. I suppose the 1TB drive can go in the media center PC though, since it's only ever needed when that is on. This could work!

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 17:46 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Sounds reasonable. To solve your (hopefully temporary) too-many-drives problem, you could bung a USB-to-sata converter onto one drive, but connect the power to the main PSU (i.e. keep it inside the case, I assume there's room). Cheaper and should take a bit less juice than an external enclosure with separate supply.

Author:	JohnCoffey [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 18:10 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: Sounds reasonable. To solve your (hopefully temporary) too-many-drives problem, you could bung a USB-to-sata converter onto one drive, but connect the power to the main PSU (i.e. keep it inside the case, I assume there's room). Cheaper and should take a bit less juice than an external enclosure with separate supply. Good call. I read up on that board and apparently it has loads of USB headers so you could run one internally and connect drives to it.

Author:	Doctor Glyndwr [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 20:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: JohnCoffey wrote: A psu only outputs what is being drawn on it though right? So lets say you have a 1kw psu youre not using that, only what the hardware sucks? No, PSUs let out about 85% of what they take in from the mains. The rest goes into heat, that's why there's a fan. Big ones waste more power even doing nothing, like a car with a big engine. Kalmar, this is contrary to my understanding of how a MOSFET switchmode PSU works. Are you sure? Now there are issues about how the efficiency of a given PSU varies with input load (citation), which is related to but distinct from what you are discussing.

Author:	kalmar [ Sat Mar 06, 2010 23:45 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
I was trying to explain that a large power supply, very lightly loaded, will be noticeably less efficient than a small power supply at 3/4 load or so. So in this case, a smaller supply is better. I may have over-simplified above, but I assume you agree with that? So, the reasons for that will also mean that the supply switched on by itself and not powering anything, the larger one will take more power. More magnetic losses, a bigger fan to run, it will be in discontinuous mode so less efficient use of the transformer... Right? Also: input load?

Author:	Doctor Glyndwr [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:54 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
kalmar wrote: I may have over-simplified above, but I assume you agree with that? Yes, I agree with that. The rule of thumb I follow is that the quoted PSU efficiency (say 80%) will apply when it's between about 50% and 75% of rated load (so 500-750W of drawn current for a 1kW PSU, say). Outside of that range of load, efficiency falls -- although it's my understanding that it doesn't fall drastically until you are well outside of that range, so I don't worry about it. It's almost impossible to get a computer PSU down to 20% loaded, I think; unless you set out to do it by plugging a 1kW uber-PSU into a mini-ITX board with no HDDs or something. I could be wrong on this though. I'm operating more from received wisdom than direct experience. Quote: Also: input load? Haha, yeah. You know what I mean! To get back to Davpaz's original comment, I think kalmar is correct, you should buy something. I bought a DNS-323 NAS unit for £150 which replaced an always-on server built from commodity kit; the electricity consumption saving meant it paid for itself in about 12-18 months, because it drew less than 10W when the drives were spun down (which was most of the time).

Author:	kalmar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 15:51 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Doctor Glyndwr wrote: It's almost impossible to get a computer PSU down to 20% loaded, I think; unless you set out to do it by plugging a 1kW uber-PSU into a mini-ITX board with no HDDs or something. I do think we might be in that ballpark though - I got the impression this was a repurposed gaming rig, so possibly has a 500W PSU. If a a mini-itx with the drive spun down only takes 10W, that's only 2% loaded! In that scenario, there's definitely as much waste as useful power going on. It's perhaps not as drastic as I'm making out, but it's definitely one of the factors in why those little fanless systems with laptop PSUs are dramatically better at this, it all adds up. Quote: I could be wrong on this though. I'm operating more from received wisdom than direct experience. Likewise - you probably noticed that any plots you can find on the web are for manufacturers highest efficiency supplies and they helpfully don't plot what happens below 20% load. Some science might be needed here

Author:	Grim... [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 23:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Unless I'm missing something in the first post, it seems like you don't actually need a PC. I've got a Buffalo Linkstation that does all that stuff.

Author:	kalmar [ Sun Mar 07, 2010 23:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Hmm, that reminds me, I have a buffalo linkstation HD-H250LAN which has been lying around for over a year unused because I didn't get on with it and couldn't be bothered to sell it. I think you can run linux and all that servering stuff on it. Anyone want?

Author:	Grim... [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
But you have a PC for turning on when you need to do "stuff".

Author:	kalmar [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:25 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Fair point though, the missus might be hogging the good computer.

Author:	DavPaz [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:26 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Ah, but since I have an Xbox, 'stuff' isn't very demanding. I also have a laptop and a netbook, so I guess I'm just ascared of Linux

Author:	kalmar [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
Get a Mac!

Author:	MaliA [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: Low Power Computing
DavPaz wrote: Ah, but since I have an Xbox, 'stuff' isn't very demanding. I also have a laptop and a netbook, so I guess I'm just ascared of Linux I was able to use Linux fine. Go figure....