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Communications Data Bill
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Author:  Grim... [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:56 ]
Post subject:  Communications Data Bill

Er... Eek?
The Communications Data Bill is going to monitor all mobile phone activity and Internet traffic. It's not going to store content, so your conversation won't be logged, but who you called, from where, or who you emailed will be stored.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7671046.stm

WTF?

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

All your [insert noun here] are belong to us.

What scares me about that bill is that I'm entirely unsurprised by it.

In any event, GCHQ and the Yanks at Menwith Hill do this anyway.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
In any event, GCHQ and the Yanks at Menwith Hill do this anyway.
They don't hand the data over to, say, the parking enforcement officers of Bromwich Council on demand though. Want to bet this information will require only the flimsiest of pretexts to look at?

Author:  Dudley [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I've given up. No-one important cares, hopefully a future government will dismantle a fair part of the ever increasing 3rd world tinpot dictatorialness of the government.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

richardgaywood wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
In any event, GCHQ and the Yanks at Menwith Hill do this anyway.
They don't hand the data over to, say, the parking enforcement officers of Bromwich Council on demand though. Want to bet this information will require only the flimsiest of pretexts to look at?


I bet they do already, mind. The councils and libraries and all the rest of it have access to everything they could ever want, under the various ridiculous anti-terror laws we already have.

In fact, your council could monitor your email traffic themselves under RIPA anyway.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

""That is not a government policy that is somehow optional. It is a reality to which the government must respond," Smith said"

From here

You fucking what? I think you'll find it, is, love.

"Nor are we going to give local authorities the power to trawl through such a database in the interest of investigating lower level criminality under the spurious cover of counter terrorist legislation."

No, because they already have the power to find that info themselves under the existing anti-terror legislation, thanks to you and yours. You evil witch.

Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

East Germany's Jacqui Smith wrote:
I am clear that we need to consult widely with the public and all interested parties to set out the emerging problem, the important capability gaps that we need to address and to look at the possible solutions... my aim is to achieve a consensus,"


Er, when was the last government consulation that produced a result different to what they were going to do anyway?

I've already written to my MP once this month but I know he's not going to make a fuss. That guy would vote for his own execution.

In other news - did you read her speech about the 42-day interment thing? It was the parliamentary equivalent of 'it's my ball, go away, nar nar nar'.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Kern wrote:
East Germany's Jacqui Smith wrote:
I am clear that we need to consult widely with the public and all interested parties to set out the emerging problem, the important capability gaps that we need to address and to look at the possible solutions... my aim is to achieve a consensus,"


Er, when was the last government consulation that produced a result different to what they were going to do anyway?

I've already written to my MP once this month but I know he's not going to make a fuss. That guy would vote for his own execution.

In other news - did you read her speech about the 42-day interment thing? It was the parliamentary equivalent of 'it's my ball, go away, nar nar nar'.


I can't say I have, no - the woman is like fingernails on a blackboard even in type so I tend to avoid her. Have you got a linky?

I have never written to my lickspittle* MP. I do not see the point. As with consultations, negative opinions are filtered out at the first hurdle, and then the remaining ones are held up as examples of the green ink brigade and dismissed.


*I love this word. Galloway has ruined it for me, though.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

This has been in the works for ages and it's going to be hell fighting against it because the "typical voter" doesn't "understand" the "internet" so the Gov think they can get away from it.

If lots and lots of people spent 5 mins to

WRITE TO THEM (no need to leave the webpage, just give it your Postcode, and it pops up a window to moan away)

Then maybe that belief would be shaken a bit.

Advice I've found for good emails:

1) Make it clear in no uncertain terms that they will lose your vote in the coming election if they vote for this bill in any shape and form. (Obviously don't mention that you didn't vote for them last time if thats the case). This normally rattles them and gets you a reply about how nice they are really.

2) Request a response. Add something like "please respond clarifying your position on this." Lots of them pretend that if that isn't ask no response is needed.

3) Don't insult them, sound like a die hard fan that is going to turn to the other side over this. They don't care if hippy/yuppie still dislikes them, they only care about their voter base, so pretend to be a fawning fan.

(Hello Titler etc)

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

If someone drafts a letter for me I may send it to my local MP, then. I have too much BeeXing to do. That refresh button doesn't hit itself.

Man, when did I become so apathetic about politics? Round about the time I became old enough to vote, I think.

Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
I can't say I have, no - the woman is like fingernails on a blackboard even in type so I tend to avoid her. Have you got a linky?


She is so out of her depth it's almost pitiful at times.

The easier 'theyworkforyou' version isn't working for me at the moment:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmhansrd/cm081013/debtext/81013-0016.htm#08101334000001

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Thanks Kern.

Two lines in and we've got the usual "we're all going to die" nonsense, and a thought occurs:

Does anyone seriously believe we actually face a serious threat from terrorism? We've had one actual attack from the Beardies, and the rest have been comedy clown efforts.

Spend all that counter-terrorism money on schools and hospitals instead and I'll just take my chances with the Jihaddy-waddies, ta. Rather than, you know, undermining all the freedoms we're supposedly defending.

Author:  Squirt [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Note to government types - when you are writing new laws, think about what Stalin would have thought of them. If he would be jumping up and down with glee, twirling his moustache and hugging his head of secret police, it's probably time for a rethink.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
If someone drafts a letter for me I may send it to my local MP, then. I have too much BeeXing to do. That refresh button doesn't hit itself.

Man, when did I become so apathetic about politics? Round about the time I became old enough to vote, I think.


I wrote this:

Quote:
Dear Frank Dobson,

Today the bbc announced this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7671046.stm

A database recording enough of our actions to trace every member of our society. This is outrageous enough to warrant what is typically the hyperbole term 'Orwellian.' I fear that as most MPs are too old to have grown up with the internet they do not fully grasp the nature of their actions.

As my representative in Parliament I wish for you to strongly oppose this plan in every way available to you.

Please respond stating what your views of this plan are, and what actions you will take to oppose (or support) them. As, despite being a fan of yours, this is the final straw. Labours continued assaults on my civil liberties is enough to lose them my vote in the coming election, and is seriously making me consider voting Tory in the next election, despite the widespread damage it would cause, just to ensure essential civil liberties are preserved. Voting Tory was idea unthinkable until recently, but I will no longer support you if you support this plan.



Yours sincerely,
Lave Station aged 4 and a half


In about 5 minutes as I too am very busy.

Be sure to change it a little, to avoid pinging any spam/mass post filters.

Author:  kalmar [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
Does anyone seriously believe we actually face a serious threat from terrorism? We've had one actual attack from the Beardies, and the rest have been comedy clown efforts.

Spend all that counter-terrorism money on schools and hospitals instead and I'll just take my chances with the Jihaddy-waddies, ta. Rather than, you know, undermining all the freedoms we're supposedly defending.


:this: and also :this:

They had that bloke in court yesterday who tried to blow up a caf in Exeter or somewhere - his plan failed when he locked himself in the toilet and couldn't get out.
Between him and Singeon Majeep the Glasgow airport bomber, like you said, I'll just take my chances ta.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Your MP is Frank Dobson? Awesome. I wuvs him.

I will draft something up myself shortly, and post up for people to nick bits from as well.

Also - you're missing apostrophe. ("Labour's continued...") :)

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
Your MP is Frank Dobson? Awesome. I wuvs him.

I will draft something up myself shortly, and post up for people to nick bits from as well.

Also - you're missing apostrophe. ("Labour's continued...") :)


I've not got time for them, I should have left the house 5 minutes ago. (BUGGER)

Author:  markg [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
Thanks Kern.

Two lines in and we've got the usual "we're all going to die" nonsense, and a thought occurs:

Does anyone seriously believe we actually face a serious threat from terrorism? We've had one actual attack from the Beardies, and the rest have been comedy clown efforts.

<devils advocate>Maybe that's because our security services with their increased powers are doing such a great job. We'd probably have all been exploded by suitcase nukes by now if it wasn't for the crack team of Jack Bauers running around saving us all.</devils advocate>

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

markg wrote:
<devils advocate>Maybe that's because our security services with their increased powers are doing such a great job. We'd probably have all been exploded by suitcase nukes by now if it wasn't for the crack team of Jack Bauers running around saving us all.</devils advocate>


The ones not too busy shooting Brazilian electricians in the face, you mean?

Author:  markg [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Yes, those ones.

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Damn. My MP is Tory (the only Welsh Conservative MP I think, and that's because I am on the western fringe of the constituency which covers Monmouth, which is practically an English town) so I'm going to have to write my own letter instead of using someone elses.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

markg wrote:
Yes, those ones.

I've just twigged to the code on the side of the Spit in your avatar - awesomes!

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
I've just twigged to the code on the side of the Spit in your avatar - awesomes!
Vote Mr Chris for biscuits, vague legal advice, and poor image comprehension skills, everyone! That name again is Mr Chris!

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Dude, I can sell myself, but thanks for the bigging!

Image comprehension skills? I thought it was greenish yellow too, you know.

Author:  markg [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
markg wrote:
Yes, those ones.

I've just twigged to the code on the side of the Spit in your avatar - awesomes!

To give credit where it's due, it wasn't my idea, I think it might have come from b3ta or somewhere.

Author:  Dudley [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Mr Chris wrote:
Does anyone seriously believe we actually face a serious threat from terrorism? We've had one actual attack from the Beardies, and the rest have been comedy clown efforts.


Exactly.

http://www.enterspace.org/askduds/?p=68

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Right, letteroonie from Mr Chris about to wing its way out into the ether and thence onto someone's "to bin" pile:

Quote:
Dear Lickspittle,

Yesterday the Home Secretary announced plans for a huge central database to retain details of who contacted whom online, where and when.

This will constitute a database recording enough of our actions to trace every member of our society. To know who our friends are, what we buy online, what we believe in politically or religiously, what our sexual preferences are. The level of insight into our private lives this will give to the users of the database will be frighteningly wide.

The prospect of such an Orwellian tool being provided to the government raises a number of specific and important questions:

(1) Lord Carlile, the government's own independent scrutineer of counter-terror legislation, has warned that "the raw idea [of a central database] is dreadful. The devil will be in the detail." He has warned against the misuse of this database for "fishing expeditions" whereby the users of the database will mine the data, for anything of interest, no matter how minor. If this database is created, how will access to this database be controlled, and such patent misuse of this panoply of information be prevented?

(2) Ms Smith has said that "nor are we going to give local authorities the power to trawl through such a database in the interest of investigating lower level criminality under the spurious cover of counter terrorist legislation." However, a similar promise was made in relation to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act - quote "...such legislation is required to combat terrorism and its use will be restricted to such terrorist related cases..." . As we all know, RIPA is now routinely used by local authorities in respect of such weighty matters as school catchment areas, dog fouling and use of dustbins. What assurances can we possibly have that the same will not happen with this new tool?

(3) How does the government intend to meaningfully mine the mind-bogglingly large amount of data that this scheme would amass every single day? It simply will not happen. This will create a very, very big haystack with a very small number of interesting activities and we don't even know if they are the needles the security services want. We will not therefore be able to identify new terrorist threats from this pile of data. What, then, is the point?

(4) Quite aside from the threat that this database poses to the innocent populace, I would also question its necessity. In her speech, Jacqui Smith noted that since 2004 communications data has been used "as important evidence in 95 per cent of serious crime cases and in almost all Security Service operations". Such a statistic raises the question of why more powers are needed. With Ms Smith herself stating that the current measures are actually good enough to provide a good rate of conviction, why do we need another expensive set of potentially intrusive and probably functionally useless monitoring tools?

(5) Finally, what assurances can we have that this vast store of data will not be mislaid in the same manner as the now embarrassingly large catalogue of data handling failures that have occurred under this government? The government seems unable to cope with the databases it has now, so how can it possibly hope to ensure the security of the contents of a database containing the details of every single phone call, internet access and mobile text message sent by the 60 million citizens of this country?

As my representative in Parliament I therefore wish for you to strongly oppose this plan in every way available to you. As such I would request that you please respond stating what your views of this plan are, and what actions you will take to oppose them.

Despite being a Labour supporter and a fan of yours, this is the final straw. Labour's continued assaults on our civil liberties are enough to lose them my vote in the coming election. I am now seriously considering voting Conservative in the next election, despite the widespread damage a Tory government would otherwise cause, just to ensure essential civil liberties are preserved. Voting Tory was a repellent idea until recently, but I will no longer support you if you support this plan.

Yours sincerely,

Mr Chris

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'm going to pretty much steal that wholesale for my MP, if that's alright with you.

BETEO project!

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Fill your boots, mate!

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I've changed it quite a bit to make sure it doesn't fall foul of the 'form letters' rule on that site.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

The alternative is to print it out and send it by actual post, of course.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

That is bloody ace Mr Chris. :DD

Do you mind if I steal that for Skeptobot? I'm going to make a guide on how to complain in 5 minutes, and It would be good to include a short and long example letter (I'll ref to you). I don't have much time today to do this, but the sooner the response the better.

Like Grim says if you agree probably best I alter it before I put it up to avoid spam copy filtering.

Beteo project indeed!

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Yep, do feel free, Lavey.

And thanks for getting me off my arse to do something. That writeyourmp site is amazing. I shall be using it lots.

Author:  Curiosity [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Lave wrote:
That is bloody ace Mr Chris. :DD

Do you mind if I steal that for Skeptobot? I'm going to make a guide on how to complain in 5 minutes, and It would be good to include a short and long example letter (I'll ref to you). I don't have much time today to do this, but the sooner the response the better.

Like Grim says if you agree probably best I alter it before I put it up to avoid spam copy filtering.

Beteo project indeed!


Be sure to properly credit him, including a link to his site (it's in his sig).

:D

Author:  JBR [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

markg wrote:
Mr Chris wrote:
Thanks Kern.

Two lines in and we've got the usual "we're all going to die" nonsense, and a thought occurs:

Does anyone seriously believe we actually face a serious threat from terrorism? We've had one actual attack from the Beardies, and the rest have been comedy clown efforts.

<devils advocate>Maybe that's because our security services with their increased powers are doing such a great job. We'd probably have all been exploded by suitcase nukes by now if it wasn't for the crack team of Jack Bauers running around saving us all.</devils advocate>

Even that argument falls down for future/proposed legislation, though - I'd argue they're doing a tough and vital job, yadda yadda, but are getting some results and that's great. No more powers needed, sod off.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:23 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Curiosity wrote:
Be sure to properly credit him, including a link to his site (it's in his sig).

:D


Ha ha ha ha ha, will do. :)

Actually Mr Chris, for pedantic reasons, I want to release the post (and thus your letter) in the most open form possible which means giving the text a creative commons, no credit needed license, so that hopefully people (if they wish) can remix it and make it better than my initial effort then rehost it as there own work. That ok with you?

Obv you'll get the link from me though.

Author:  JBR [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Damn, Mr Chris, when you get to letter writing, you're good (Lave, too, but, you know).

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

JBR wrote:
(Lave, too, but, you know).


Not even the same fucking league mate. I'm happy to admit that!

Also: Remember the police will soon be using CCTV to record 50,000,000 car nbumber plates a date, so taht they can recreate all journeys taken.

This has got to stop. It's gone to far.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Yeah. Every bit I changed made it sound worse :(

Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'm doing a Mr Chris remix now.

Edit -- slow going. Will take a while.

Author:  itsallwater [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 13:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

As I understand all the backbone routers that allow access to the internet are able to perform a range of monitoring tasks. Search of words and so on as packets are past through. I then assume more complex tasks will be performed if a keyword is found. Currently I believe this is against the law to use but essentially I believe the equipment is already there to perform this task. This limits data capture but allow users to pick out anything as required and easily build profiles on anything.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 14:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Aw, shucks all.

For a full and rounded ending I was going to add "PS - You cunt" but thought that might get caught in the filters.

Lave wrote:

Actually Mr Chris, for pedantic reasons, I want to release the post (and thus your letter) in the most open form possible which means giving the text a creative commons, no credit needed license, so that hopefully people (if they wish) can remix it and make it better than my initial effort then rehost it as there own work. That ok with you?

Obv you'll get the link from me though.

Yep, fine with me.

Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 14:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Excellent letters folks.

What really irks me is people saying 'but the greatest human right is not to be blown up', forgetting that bills of rights etc relate to the individual's relationship to the state, not other individuals.

Author:  Scarysheep3000 [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 14:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

I'll adapt (steal) Mr Chris's letter for my own use tonight. Cheers, sir. Can't believe there's not more of a stink being kicked up about this. Why are people so fucking apathetic?

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 14:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Scarysheep3000 wrote:
Can't believe there's not more of a stink being kicked up about this. Why are people so fucking apathetic?

Because it's really bloody easy to be - and most of this stuff can be dismissed with "well, I'm not a Muzzie, so it won't happen to me".

Which, to be frank, I've been doing for a while, in a way. I'll get a head of steam up at something on the telly, and then switch over because it's making me angry, and then forget all about it.

Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 14:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

:this: Got there before me.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 15:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Write I've very quickly knocked out two blog posts:

Step 1 - which explains what the Bill will do
and
Step 2 - which explains how to complain with example letters.

I really don't care about promoting my pissy little blog over this. So it's all released to the public domain for people to forward, pretend to be their own, rehost, mirror or whatever.

Hopefully people will improve it, I'm very busy today but didn't want to be apathetic about it.

So yeah if you need help spreading the word, there are some resources. Not very good ones, but at least I'm trying. I'll try and give it a refresh when I've got more time tonight.

Author:  Grim... [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 15:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Twittered!

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 15:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Excellent stuff, Lave.

Author:  Dr Lave [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 15:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Communications Data Bill

Cheers guys. :hug:

Grim..: Maybe you should make the news ticker chastise everyone on the forum who isn't reading this thread.

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