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Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10024		 Page 258 of 290
Author:  Cras [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
My main hope is that Labour do quite well, and that as a result they no longer have to pander to the 'working class brexiter' that they are oddly convinced makes up most of their base.
Author:  Cras [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
The only possible reason I can see for their constant fence sitting is electability. Of course, that probably means a useless fence sitting election campaign.
Author:  MaliA [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 13:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://twitter.com/BarrySheerman/statu ... 2775721984




https://twitter.com/BarrySheerman/statu ... 2640811008




Starting well for Labour
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 14:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Cras wrote:
The only possible reason I can see for their constant fence sitting is electability. Of course, that probably means a useless fence sitting election campaign.


I think Labour will want to campaign on anything but Brexit.
Author:  LewieP [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 14:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
devilman wrote:
Cras wrote:
I think there has to be one. Without it nothing can change and hard brexiters only need to get lucky ones. Also it means we can finally get rid of Kate Hoey.


My knowledge of politics isn't great, so this might be a stupid question, but isn't there a fair chance than an election could solve nothing regarding Brexit?


Feels like the most likely outcome to me.
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 15:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Mr Dunt's new universal tweet:

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1189186409153740806
Author:  MaliA [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 15:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Q: if amendment is added for second ref, but bill fails, is second ref dead for duration?
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 15:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
MaliA wrote:
Q: if amendment is added for second ref, but bill fails, is second ref dead for duration?


I'm not sure if such an amendment would be within the scope of this particular bill.

As for your question, I think if an amendment were tabled and failed to pass, that would be sufficient for doubters to say "it's not going to happen". Ultimately, I think it would depend on the chair and the political circumstances. Amendments are different to motions and bills as it could be taken that it isn't saying the House has come to a decision on the matter in the way a failed "let's have a referendum" bill would.
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 16:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Checked Erskine May.

Relevant passage:
Quote:
A motion or an amendment which is the same, in substance, as a question which has been decided during a session may not be brought forward again during that same session.
...
However, a question which has not been definitely decided may be raised again. Thus, a motion or amendment which has been withdrawn, or on which the Chair has declared the question not decided when it appeared that fewer than 40 Members had taken part in a division, or for some other reason, may be repeated
Author:  MaliA [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 16:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Cheers. Looking for the trap...
Author:  Cras [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 16:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Kern's right though. A second ref amendment would likely be not selected as it's not in the scope of an election bill.
Author:  Cras [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 16:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Also based on the idea that no parliament can bind its successor, I would not imagine any election bill could contain amendments to require something to happen after the election.
Author:  Nik [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 17:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1189210635374092288
Author:  MaliA [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 18:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Cras wrote:
Kern's right though. A second ref amendment would likely be not selected as it's not in the scope of an election bill.


Yeah, sure, scouting for a trap.
Author:  zaphod79 [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 21:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
So looks like the 12th wins - which means we will find out the winners on Friday the 13th ....
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 21:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Unless their Lordships throw a curve ball, but that's unlikely.
Author:  Kern [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 22:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
I wouldn't be surprised if they bring back the WAB in the remaining days to try to win over likely Brexit Party voters annoyed about Johnson's ditch.
Author:  Trooper [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 22:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Kern wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if they bring back the WAB in the remaining days to try to win over likely Brexit Party voters annoyed about Johnson's ditch.


No chance, Boris has said he wouldn't do that, he wouldn't lie about something that important, would he...
Author:  myp [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 22:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Jesus Christ not another fucking election
Author:  DavPaz [ Tue Oct 29, 2019 23:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Mr Chonks wrote:
Jesus Christ not another fucking election

And an inevitable hung parliament. Yay.
Author:  BikNorton [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 0:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Can we have a hanged parliament instead?
Author:  Warhead [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Kern wrote:
Unless their Lordships throw a curve ball, but that's unlikely.


Indeed it is unlikely.

They would bowl a googly, not throw a curve ball.
Author:  MrC [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
DavPaz wrote:
Mr Chonks wrote:
Jesus Christ not another fucking election

And an inevitable hung parliament. Yay.


Are you sure about that? The numbers in the polls are similar to the ones May had when her snap election went tits up, maybe even less of a lead this time than she appeared to have.

But, I think quite a few people vote in a GE on personality rather than policies and, let's face it, Theresa didn't have one (a personality, I mean, but I can't remember any policies either). Boris, on the other hand, is still seen as the lovable clown (rather than the massive self-obsessed wanker that he is). That may well be more than enough to see him through to a large majority.

I really hope I'm wrong.
Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
With Ruth Davidson gone, the Tories have lost Scotland. Heck, the UK might follow suit too. That's a dozen seats spoken for already.
Author:  myp [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
There’s enough selfish racist wankers in this country that “just want Brexit done”. Labour are providing no real alternative. Lib Dems want to revoke A50 without another referendum, so outside core support for that they have nothing.

I predict a big Tory majority this time.
Author:  Hearthly [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Decent campaign launch video from Labour.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... 9292960768
Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Quote:
"get Brexit done"


I hate that slogan. It's catchy, but completely misleading. To get it over with, you have to revoke and never talk of the matter again. Otherwise we're looking at years of negotiations, cliff-edges and uncertainty. But that's not as memorable.
Author:  MrC [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Mr Chonks wrote:
There’s enough selfish racist wankers in this country that “just want Brexit done”. Labour are providing no real alternative. Lib Dems want to revoke A50 without another referendum, so outside core support for that they have nothing.

I predict a big Tory majority this time.


:this: It's not hard to see where the campaign will go. Again, I hope you and me are both wrong. If you look at what Johnson (or his advisor(s)) can do in a few weeks, imagine the damage over five years. Scary, scary times.
Author:  Kern [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
What's more worrying is the loss of the more moderate Tory MPs and their likely replacements by hardline Brexitboars. As with Labour, the local parties have seen an influx of more extreme types. This will define the Tory Party for a long time.
Author:  Nik [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
I agree, sadly, with Messrs C & C.

Meanwhile, to keep the tiny, flickering flame of optimism alive, in the harsh, bitter wind of reality, this might be useful: https://getvoting.org/
Author:  Nik [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Kern wrote:
What's more worrying is the loss of the more moderate Tory MPs and their likely replacements by hardline Brexitboars. As with Labour, the local parties have seen an influx of more extreme types. This will define the Tory Party for a long time.

Indeed. Both Tories and Labour are losing a lot of moderate (for which you could easily read "reasonable") MPs. Parliament is about to get even uglier...
Author:  markg [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
The term moderate and extreme as applied to Labour and the Conservatives have taken on whole new meanings. A moderate Tory is anyone who isn't a Nazi and for Labour, extreme is anyone to the left of Tony Blair.
Author:  Nik [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
While a centrist is anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn?
Author:  Hearthly [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
The thing is Corbyn isn't even that far left and the Labour Party's agenda isn't particularly radical, it's a sign of how fucked political debate is that they're routinely labelled as extremist.
Author:  LewieP [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Did Labour really get rid of the Fox Hunting Ban?
Author:  MrC [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
markg wrote:
The term moderate and extreme as applied to Labour and the Conservatives have taken on whole new meanings. A moderate Tory is anyone who isn't a Nazi and for Labour, extreme is anyone to the left of Tony Blair.


This is spot on, thanks for saying it. Question is, how do we change it? I'm all out of ideas, except there definitely should have been / should be a second referendum, rather than an election. 2016, no-one quite knew what they were voting for, but now the information is out there, which is precisely why the Tories don't want one. Why does the "will of the people" only apply to the past, not what they think in 2019 when informed?
Author:  MrC [ Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Nik wrote:
I agree, sadly, with Messrs C & C.

Meanwhile, to keep the tiny, flickering flame of optimism alive, in the harsh, bitter wind of reality, this might be useful: https://getvoting.org/


Nik, I share that candle of optimism. My personal hope is that Johnson, after not dying in a ditch, might lose some votes to the Brexit party, and split the right-wing vote. Dunno if it'll happen, but you have to hope.
Author:  Four_Candles [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Nik wrote:
I agree, sadly, with Messrs C & C.

Meanwhile, to keep the tiny, flickering flame of optimism alive, in the harsh, bitter wind of reality, this might be useful: https://getvoting.org/


Honestly, do NOT use that site - it often tells you to vote Lib Dem irrespective of who else is running and the Lib Dem presence (or not) that that area, and that would see an uptick in Tory wins.

There's a number of sites springing up now, a few of them look dodgy. Research them all before using.

So far https://tacticalvote.co.uk/ is looking promising, but as the note on the site says:

"Most data is currently TBC, Tactical Vote will update further once candidates have been confirmed."

In other words it's best to watch and wait, we still have six weeks to go.
Author:  Satsuma [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Weird, mine recommended voting Labour.
Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:45 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Satsuma wrote:
Weird, mine recommended voting Labour.

Me too.
Author:  Findus Fop [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Satsuma wrote:
Weird, mine recommended voting Labour.

Me too.


And me, though my Labour MP is vocally Remain.
Author:  Mimi [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Mine too, but I think Four Candle’s advice is generally very sound. Those sorts of sites are generally well shared on occasions such as these and would be a very efficient way of swaying votes to prompt the user to vote tactically ‘wrongly’.
Author:  Doctor Glyndwr [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Mimi wrote:
Mine too, but I think Four Candle’s advice is generally very sound. Those sorts of sites are generally well shared on occasions such as these and would be a very efficient way of swaying votes to prompt the user to vote tactically ‘wrongly’.

But on the other hand, it's equally easy to efficiently spread rumours that a site cannot be trusted, and thus should be ignored. Even if it's actually giving reasonable advice.

I also saw tweets about this site that said "it only ever says LibDem and should not be used." Based on a few datapoints in this thread, the first part of that statement isn't true, which puts the second part into doubt.
Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Given my seat has a Tory majortity of 12,000 and Labour are 17,000 votes ahead of the Lib Dems, it was unsurprising that the Best for Britain site (get-voting) suggested Labour for me. I need to read up on the new Labour candidate as I don't know much about her. I follow her predecessor on Twitter and generally impressed by his positions on things.
Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Tempted to write a "who to vote for" site that regardless of your input spits out "you are eaten by a grue".
Author:  MaliA [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:03 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Satsuma wrote:
Weird, mine recommended voting Labour.

Me too.


Me, too.
Author:  DavPaz [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
MaliA wrote:
Doctor Glyndwr wrote:
Satsuma wrote:
Weird, mine recommended voting Labour.

Me too.


Me, too.

Me too, too.
Author:  Cras [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Lib Dems standing aside for Dominic Grieve, interestingly.
Author:  Kern [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Cras wrote:
Lib Dems standing aside for Dominic Grieve, interestingly.


More of this kind of thing, please. From everyone.
Author:  MaliA [ Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
Kern wrote:
Cras wrote:
Lib Dems standing aside for Dominic Grieve, interestingly.


More of this kind of thing, please. From everyone.


Yes.
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